Sectarianism and Protestancy

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thenooblet22

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Sectarianism, Protestancy, Splits and Schisms​

How to:
Must research Divine Right
Declare 'Reformation' in the Religion Advisor Screen for your state religion
Period of Anarchy and Stability hits
Obsolete when entering 'Enlightenment' (Liberalism or Nationalism?)
Restrictions:
Only one 'Reformation' for each civilization
Requires being 'Stable' (or at least 'Unstable')
Civilization can't reform the religion that they control the holy city of
Religion:
Names can be generated from a list (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...ight=religious)
Symbol can be the original modified with the emblem of the founder's flag
No holy city
Dispersion:
During 'Anarchy', religion spreads with enhanced rate (exact speed not decided)
After 'Anarchy', religion speed returns to normal
Missionaries allowed
AI:
Civilization is "Cautious"-or lower towards the other Civilization containing holy city.
Civilization is powerful enough (a certain percentage towards the other Civilization with the holy city/or a certain percentage towards the entire religious family)
Civilization holds enough stability (a certain amount so they won't kill themselves with the revolution)
Optional:
Preordained sectarian splits (Hinduism/Buddhism, Shi'ite/Sunni/Sufi, Catholic/Orthodox/Protestant)
Unhappy cities reform their own religion

Original post:
Spoiler :
After hearing about your news to close this project soon, I thought I should
stop procrastinating and speak up. I know, I know, people have already mentioned this. But I've been thinking further on how to implement it.

Basically, I'm tired of seeing an uniformed religious family of nations that connect the world in harmony... that just never happened. Sectarian breaks should occur by choice, randomly, or even pre-determined. Here it goes:

Civilization will be able to declare 'Reformation' in the Religion Advisor after they researched Divine Right. They cannot reform when they control the original holy city (or, for balance, if the religion is a minority in your country). When you declare 'Reformation,' you should be hit hard with anarchy and possibly to your stability as well. New protestant relgions can have real names or randomly generated ones (using a list?). The symbols for the new religion could be the original with a figure/shape or the founder's flag. To make sure no one can just spam these, I think you should be allowed only one 'Reformation' for each country. The benifits for this can be determined by you (Rhye), but for balancing I think you should not control a holy city. Protestant religions should spread much faster to keep up with the already established ones. Missionaries could be allowed as well. This way, people who miss out on the religious trek can still form their own alliances. However, when a nation reaches "Enlightenment," they should lose the ability to reform (so what ever technology you think best fits this: Nationalism?)

For the AI use, there should several precautions. The only time the AI will possibly consider doing this is when they are Cautious-or lower in relations with the religion's homeland. Even then, the AI should consider it's stability and power. These reformations should also happen against the government. A city which is unhappy or revolting should have the opportunity (with a low percentage) to declare 'Reformation' for its home religion (using up your option to do it yourself). Finally, you can also set pre-ordained splits. The most famous could be the Hinduism-Buddhism break and the Shiite-Sunni-Sufi split of Islam.

You don't have to include this on top of your to-do list, but I think you should consider it. It's an important chunk of history that hasn't been represented.

Balance:
Spoiler :
By the time most civilizations research Divine Right, Europe should be together (i.e. at least "Pleased"). The only ones who will want to break away are the ones who have been declared war on or other diplomatic penalties (i.e. "Stop trading with bla bla bla," "You traded with our worst enemy," "Our close borders spark tensions," and others) Plus, diplomatic grumps (like Stalin) will be more likely to do so as well (imagine the Great Schism).
 
It looks that way from the post, but really its just clicking 'Reformation' in your Religion Advisor screen. The rest are just restrictions and precautions. The reforming-revolting city idea can be scrapped if that's too complicated though.
 
I'm going to say what I always say about these sort of things: great if they work, but not sure if they can.
 
thenooblet22 said:
However, when a nation reaches "Enlightenment," they should lose the ability to reform (so what ever technology you think best fits this: Nationalism?)
Click to expand...

Christianity has continued to have "schisms" well into the 20th century.


I don't know if I would use the function all that much. Diplomatically, this would be a nightmare. You'd suddenly have a -6 with every other civ. The only way to fix this, IMO, is to instantly spread the religion in every city X squares away from the holy city (My gut says 15, but it would have to be play tested). This way there is a small chance you can bribe a neighbor into joining your new religious bloc.
 
Talkie_Toaster said:
I meant regarding programming, not playability.
Click to expand...
The Stability mode was probably more of a programming nightmare. I don't see how this is complicated though. It only has three triggers:
a) Civilization is "Cautious"-or lower towards the other Civilization with the holy city.
b) Civilization is powerful enough (a certain percentage towards the other Civilization with the holy city/or a certain percentage towards the entire religious family)
c) Civilization holds enough stability (a certain amount so they won't kill themselves with the revolution)
Whitefire said:
Christianity has continued to have "schisms" well into the 20th century.


I don't know if I would use the function all that much. Diplomatically, this would be a nightmare. You'd suddenly have a -6 with every other civ.
Click to expand...
Yes, but all the major ones happened earlier. Besides, this scope of a time limit is more for balancing than anything.

No no no. You read it all wrong. The civilization has the be "Cautious"-or lower. By the time most civilizations research Divine Right, Europe should be together (i.e. at least "Pleased"). The only ones who will want to break away are the ones who have been declared war on or other diplomatic penalties (i.e. "Stop trading with bla bla bla," "You traded with our worst enemy," "Our close borders spark tensions," and others) Plus, diplomatic grumps (like Stalin) will be more likely to do so as well (imagine the Great Schism).

Whitefire said:
The only way to fix this, IMO, is to instantly spread the religion in every city X squares away from the holy city (My gut says 15, but it would have to be play tested). This way there is a small chance you can bribe a neighbor into joining your new religious bloc.
Click to expand...

I already posted that the new protestant religion would have the spread much faster (probably at least fifty percent faster or more). I don't think bribing is necessary and sounds quite silly if you ask me.

Anyway it looks like no one really wants this. Rhye obviously doesn't because he hasn't replied yet.
 
thenooblet22 said:
I already posted that the new protestant religion would have the spread much faster (probably at least fifty percent faster or more). I don't think bribing is necessary and sounds quite silly if you ask me.
Click to expand...

Unless the schism is the nation's favorite religion, you're going to have to entice the AI into converting either through cash, tech or threat of force.

thenooblet22 said:
Anyway it looks like no one really wants this. Rhye obviously doesn't because he hasn't replied yet.
Click to expand...

Tch, such drama. Actually, everyone who's posted in this thread likes this idea. But, like any idea, it needs some tweaking and, more importantly, the coding time needs to be taken into consideration. Adding this to the Mod would be amazing and a great leap forward for Civ4 Mods in general. However, Rhye has to weigh the time it would take to code this versus adding a new Civ, new civics, new buildings or anything else he wants to add. I'd say wait until Rhye shoots it down before you do so as well ;D.
 
Whitefire said:
Unless the schism is the nation's favorite religion, you're going to have to entice the AI into converting either through cash, tech or threat of force.
Click to expand...

Hm, I will admit I have no idea what you said here :lol: If you meant that the protestant religions will have trouble spreading, then I guess I'll just clarify what I meant, then you just reply and correct. To make sure the religions can be transmitted as fast as possible while being balanced, we could have during the period of Anarchy (after you declare 'Reformation') the new religion will spread with a faster code, being able to convert into any city (even those will 1 or 2 religions already) and being able to do it swiftly (I'm talking about a major increase). After the Anarchy restores, the new religion will tone down to a normal speed.
I think the only bribing should be the already established one, no modifying should be necessary.

Whitefire said:
Tch, such drama. Actually, everyone who's posted in this thread likes this idea. But, like any idea, it needs some tweaking and, more importantly, the coding time needs to be taken into consideration. Adding this to the Mod would be amazing and a great leap forward for Civ4 Mods in general. However, Rhye has to weigh the time it would take to code this versus adding a new Civ, new civics, new buildings or anything else he wants to add. I'd say wait until Rhye shoots it down before you do so as well ;D.
Click to expand...
The drama comes from my crappy day, being sick and all. But this thread radiates rejection to me ;)
 
Not really. Do a search in the forums and you will find a pleasant surprise. This kind of idea is very liked by Rhye, and there was a thread about schims and religious separations.
 
Elhoim said:
Not really. Do a search in the forums and you will find a pleasant surprise. This kind of idea is very liked by Rhye, and there was a thread about schims and religious separations.
Click to expand...

I know it's been talked about, I just want it to finally be implemented. I opened this thread to hopefully brainstorm ideas on how to do so, not recieving the most conforting responses. Anyway, I hope he squeezes it in before he closes this project up.
 
Rhye proposed a different system that didn´t overload the ingame religions. It was something more internal. Anyway, I don´t remember much about it, it was all in that thread.
 
Elhoim said:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=179745&highlight=religious
Click to expand...
Yes, that would work as well. I wouldn't mind using this for the mod if Rhye chooses so.
Elhoim said:
Rhye proposed a different system that didn´t overload the ingame religions. It was something more internal. Anyway, I don´t remember much about it, it was all in that thread.
Click to expand...
I don't know why you guys keep saying this. Haven't I given enough proof to show this wouldn't just be a spamming of new religions?:
thenooblet22 said:
The Stability mode was probably more of a programming nightmare. I don't see how this is complicated though. It only has three triggers:
a) Civilization is "Cautious"-or lower towards the other Civilization with the holy city.
b) Civilization is powerful enough (a certain percentage towards the other Civilization with the holy city/or a certain percentage towards the entire religious family)
c) Civilization holds enough stability (a certain amount so they won't kill themselves with the revolution)

The civilization has the be "Cautious"-or lower. By the time most civilizations research Divine Right, Europe should be together (i.e. at least "Pleased"). The only ones who will want to break away are the ones who have been declared war on or other diplomatic penalties (i.e. "Stop trading with bla bla bla," "You traded with our worst enemy," "Our close borders spark tensions," and others) Plus, diplomatic grumps (like Stalin) will be more likely to do so as well (imagine the Great Schism).
Click to expand...
 
I don't know why you guys keep saying this. Haven't I given enough proof to show this wouldn't just be a spamming of new religions?
Click to expand...

I´m sorry, I just spoke out of talkie-toaster comment.
 
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