ALC Game 13: Mali/Mansa Musa

Pre-Game Thread

Starting Position (this post, below)
Round 1: 4000 BC to 2140 BC
Round 2: 2140 BC to 1240 BC
Round 3: 1240 BC to 640 BC
Round 4: 640 BC to 25 BC
Round 5: 25 BC to 545 AD
Round 6: 545 AD to 1214 AD
Round 7: 1214 AD to 1502 AD
Round 8: 1502 AD to 1691 AD
Round 9: 1691 AD to 1836 AD
Post Mortem

The idea of the All Leaders Challenge is that I'm going to play a game with each of the Civ IV leaders--mostly the less popular ones--that I haven't tried before. With the help of all the posters who participate, I will attempt to make the most of the leader's unique characteristics: traits, starting techs, unit, and building. Aside from the leader, the other game settings are kept constant, at their defaults, for the sake of comparison--although I'm introducing a couple of variations starting with this game (see below). I will post the saved game files, screenshots, and status reports here as the game progresses. Everyone then has a chance to chime in with their strategy ideas, or voice their frustration (or glee) when I make a mistake.

Everyone is invited to offer opinions and advice, and to make your own attempt at playing the same game. But if you do play a "shadow game", I kindly request that you refrain from posting spoilers--i.e. any facts or even hints about the map, opponents, and so on--before I'm there myself. I'm trying to play the game as authentically as possible.

In this ALC game, I'll be playing as Mansa Musa, leader of Mali. I'm playing the game using the Warlords expansion pack (complete with the 2.08 patch). The difficulty level is Monarch, the map is Fractal , and the speed is Epic .

Here are all of the game settings:



And here's a look at the start:



Well, you gotta love starting next to gems with no jungle covering them up, especially when you're Financial. And they're beside a river for an extra --niiiiiiiice. This start means Mansa is already almost charismatic, starting with +1 happy per city (once the mine is built, of course). Those gems will further tie into Mansa's unique building, the Mint, which replaces the Forge, providing an additional boost in every city with the UB.

Plus we have two food sources, one enabled by Agriculture, the other by Animal Husbandry, making those early tech targets (as usual). There are some forests for chopping and health (a lake too), hills for production, and rivers nearby: one to the south (in the fat cross) and one to the north (outside of the FC, but that could be a second commerce city). Looks like there's coast to the northeast. A very nice start for Mansa, all told, though I would have liked it if the river extended up through the western grasslands. You can't have everything.

So now the usual discussion ensues: where to move the Warrior, and should we move the Settler or settle in place? I'm tempted, I must confess, to move the Settler 1SE onto Gem Hill. Why? I guess I'm getting greedy. It looks like the river extends to the south, and as I mentioned, I'd like more riverside tiles for cottages, especially for the capital. Moving to the hill would reveal if my assumption is correct and if we should found the capital further south (say, 1S or 1SE, to keep the rice and gems). That could cost two turns, however. I'm confident enough in Mansa's traits and my own abilities to risk it, but I'll abide by the group consensus.

Too bad the Warrior is north instead of south! I figure he should move onto one of the two hills just to reveal more tiles. Or I could move him 1SE to reveal more of the potential fat cross to the east.

So let's discuss those all-important opening moves. Once there's a consensus (more or less), I'll move the Warrior and perhaps, if we agree, the Settler as well, then post the results (probably tomorrow night), and we'll go from there.

i like rivers too, but i can't see settling on the gems! the happy is nice but you'll have enough food to work them, which is 5 commerce +1 for fin +1 for on a river, 7 vs. 3 for settling on them. edit: now i see "Moving to the hill would reveal if my assumption is correct and if we should found the capital further south (say, 1S or 1SE, to keep the rice and gems)." i was totally doubting your sanity buddy.

yeah that does look like coast NE to me.

ps too early to attach a save for us yet?

Aaaaaaaand we're off again!

Sisiutil said:

I'm tempted, I must confess, to move the Settler 1SE onto Gem Hill. Why? I guess I'm getting greedy. It looks like the river extends to the south, and as I mentioned, I'd like more riverside tiles for cottages, especially for the capital. Moving to the hill would reveal if my assumption is correct and if we should found the capital further south (say, 1S or 1SE, to keep the rice and gems). That could cost two turns, however.

Click to expand...

I trust you're not thinking about settling ON the gems, as that would be the ultimate move...though it would create the rare +3 city tile...

This is one of the rare cases where I'm inclined to agree, it's best to move the settler. That blue circle up north would make an excellent city #2 -- with pigs, FIVE hills, and lots of irrigable land, it's already looking to be an AWESOME production city with only half the tiles revealed! Thing is, it would severely overlap with Timbuktu, if you settled the capital in place...

If you move, the only places to get both the rice & gems in Timbuktu's fat cross would be 1S, 1SW, or 1S+1SW. The first two options will cost only one move, but if you want to burn a second move by climbing the gems hill, be my guest...admittedly, I'm curious to see what else is over there. Already looks like lots of jungle to the south and west, though.

As for the warrior? NW would be my choice, revealing the most tiles for the 2nd city spot. (NE would reveal nothing but empty ocean, I suspect.) Heck, if that spot looks really interesting, might even be worth moving the settler up there and founding on the coast! I do think you're best off hooking up those gems ASAP, though.

So...I take it the Metal Casting slingshot is a foregone conclusion at this point?

I'd say move the Warrior Northwest so you can see what's up there. Barring something amazing, I'd suggest just settling in place. That's a great start, especially if you want to make your capital a commerce city.

I would settle in place. 2 food source in capital + gem do not justify wandering around. Move warrior SE would not reveal any times, becaus eof blocking forest.

I say settle in place, move warrior 1 nw. Build worker while researching ag, then probably BW. After that AH and pottery...not sure on order yet.

would almost be foolish not to settle in place.. only reason the gems dont have jungle is they're in the fat cross. southern part of the fat cross wont have jungle either. but if you move south you will end up with jungle to deal with. besides why wouldn't you want the pigs for the capitol?? but if you do move south the northern city will benefit from them I guess.

nice starting position.

NaZ

Looks like coast to the NE and a River to the NW.

Warrior 1 NE to confirm this. I was thinking 1 NW to get a good view of the river and to confirm the coast but would rather see if there is any sea resources before moving the capital to fit a city in there without 2 or 3 tile overlap.

Then you could consider moving Settler 1S and leaving enough space to settle above the capital on the coast to claim pigs and near the river. Might be a nice second city, but i'm not sure if it would be worth delaying settling for.

So anyway, at this stage, 1NE with Warrior.

jerVL/kg said:

I trust you're not thinking about settling ON the gems, as that would be the ultimate move...though it would create the rare +3 city tile...

Click to expand...

Of course not! Settle on gems? When I'm financial? Not in your life.

No, moving the settler to that spot was on the assumption that since it's an uncovered hill, it will reveal the most tiles. I would then move to another tile to found the capital. But as I said, that's 2 moves. NaZdReG, I can see jungle to the SW, but S looks like there's a couple of bare plains tiles.

Regarding settling in place: we could argue that since Mansa is financial, plain grassland cottages are equivalent to riverside cottages for anyone else. (But, as I said, I'm greedy.) In addition, with all those plain-jane grassland tiles to the west, chances are good that there's a hidden resource there, don't you think?

Keep in mind that if I move the Settler and don't like what I can see I can always move back to the start. We're not going after an early religion and the gems offer a big boost to early research (especially since they can be mined as soon as we have a Worker), so I think we could easily recover from the 2-turn loss. Overlap with a potential northern city is also a concern. C'mon, as two Swedish wise men once said, let's take a chance, take a chance, take a chic-a-cha-chance...

Oh, and I added the saved game file. Thanks for the heads up, KMad.

I say settle where you are and don't move, if you decide to move and settle SE and realize that your 1 tile away from the coast... It would be a Waste of 2 turns... Besides your current capital location is a great location, 2 food resources, Gems plenty of cottage worth grassland in the west and Hills for production the east.

I'd only move the Settler if the Warrior in the north Reveal Seafood Resources near the coast which you couldn't reach because of your capital's current location.

Starting Techs I believe you can delay BW... for now... 6 forest in your FC... isn't much to chop.

I'd Tech Agriculture==> AH==> Pottery==> BW

If you really want your UU

Hunting==>AH==>Archery==BW

I still support my idea of a Theology Slingshot which opens up Paper and Divine Right, the two techs you need for your Wonders University of Sankore (Paper) and The Spiral Minaret (DR). Try something Different, you almost always do the Oracle Slingshot to MC although You be more likely to do a MC Slingshot because your UB is in that that tech and you have Gems which give you extra Happy Citizens. Maybe in another game you'll try on the Theology Slingshot... at the very Minimum use your Great Prophets to light-bulb Theology==>Divine Right, if you ignore (Drama & COLs) or Meditation, You can Skip Philosophy with your GS and light-bulb Paper you give you head start on the University of Sankore assuming you'd Light-bulbed/research Theology instead of Civil Service.

cast ballot for: settle in place, move the warrior NW..unless he can swim or likes to surf.

the way these threads start out, it's too early to decide a definite order on tech past the first one..so i would say agriculture. get the rice up. then probably AH for piggies. after that, who knows. we'll consult the map.

worker first, wot? unless epic prevents him from doing anything useful. (excepting roads-to-resources, please don't yell at me for suggesting a play here, i'm only a monarch player)

------------
temp-0-bastardized-sig: Don't Shoot Me..I'm Only the Piano Player

Okay, I'll put kniteowl and LosBlack down for the "don't look a gift horse in the mouth" brigade. It is a very good start, isn't it?

Sisiutil said:

So now the usual discussion ensues: where to move the Warrior, and should we move the Settler or settle in place? I'm tempted, I must confess, to move the Settler 1SE onto Gem Hill. Why?

Click to expand...

Alcohol poisoning is my guess. Seriously, you've got a good start to rock with, does it really need a micro improvement?

If you look to the SE, you'll see the head of a second river, so if you are feeling as though that has value, you could move 1S, and settle on turn 1, with one or more extra river tiles. Of course, moving 1S puts you on the river, which would hook up the gems immediately, flushing away the utility of The Wheel (of course, you might already be connected to the river... I'm not 100% certain of the mechanics - my memory is that diagonal to the river head is not connected, and the lack of a coin on the hill to your east would seem to support that belief).

From the looks of things to the SW, plus the presence of the gems, it would appear that moving south will take you toward jungle - probably OK, as by the time the health starts to be a handicap you'll have cottaged the green anyway.

Personally, I wouldn't object to the city overlap if both blue circles were settled - the capital won't need all of it's tiles until late in the game, and in the mean time an alternative production center will likely have appeared. Have some care not to build anything significant (heroic epic) in that northern city if it has no other food and you intend to commit the pigs back to the capital.

But if I were going to move, I would likely go SW on turn 0, and settle on turn 1. This puts us on the river corner (a tile that we wouldn't be able to watermill anyway), and puts the rice into the fat cross immediately, so we can start growing at +3 right away, rather than waiting for a border pop. We can't significantly leverage the gems during the first 5 turns anyway. Is stepping on the gems going to reveal alternatives often enough to justify the extra turn? I suspect not, but don't feel terribly strongly.

Note that all of these southern movements take the pigs out of play, reducing the leverage of Animal Husbandry, and consequently Hunting.

For the warrior, the immediately useful piece of information, I think, is does the northern circle have a seafood resource - because that tells you whether sharing the pigs between the two city locations is an option. If you are already committed to moving south, or if you are already satisfied that the blue circles are sufficient, then the warrior moves NW. But if seafood would change your plans, move him NE.

That said, I do wonder if we're going a bit overboard in treating the opening movements of the scouting unit as a tactical matter of great moment. I think you're allowed to simply do the right thing without first polling the studio audience - and if someone later persuades you that there was a superior alternative, file the trick away for next time.

In all honesty, I'd agree with the gift horse folks. That's an amazing start for Mali. Really. Lots of grassland for cottages, plus two excellent food tiles to feed them, plus gems, plus a couple of hills. Yeah, yeah, you might be able to get some more riverside cottages if you go SE, but really? those can be grabbe dby another city if you need. And moving will only take away the food resources from your capitol. Giving food to a second production city would be a good option, but I think you'll want to have the flexibility to give it to your capitol in case you need to grow back from whipping or decide you just want to support more cottages.

Add my voice to the "settle in place" crowd.

Here's the thing: you already /have/ a good start. What are the odds that you'll find a better one? It's not impossible, but I'd say you have a maybe one in five chance of finding a _somewhat_ better city start. And a 4/5 chance of wasting two turns.

There's "I can afford to take a chance" and there's throwing advantage away. This looks more like the latter than the former.


Waldo

Just settle in place! 2 food, 1 gems! What else do you want? Also has some hills and forests, good for building wonders later. I'd recommend Agri-AH(or even Hunting-Agri-AH) to take advantage of the food and get cracking on the mine ASAP. I'm inclined not to go worker first for the latter tech path(hunting is slipped in because you need it for skirmishers and it makes sense to research it before AH, especially if you're not building a worker right away.

Question: Will the rice be 'irrigated' if a farm is built on one of the grasslands between the rice and the lake? Or is civil service required to irrigate back to a resource tile? I guess that's two questions.

The first thing I thought when looking at the starting position was gems on a river in the BFC with mining as a starting tech. That's so nice. Since you've got the gems, I like the idea of a MC slingshot and get those forges up for the additional happy boost. However, if you're stuck on the U of S/Minaret combo, I'd like kniteowls Theology slingshot more. You'll need to lock down some stone. With Theology, you have a religion and access to theocracy yielding one of your 'xp civic switches' early and free of anarchy cost.

I'm a settle in place player so I wouldn't move him. Pigs, gems, rice, lake in the capital is very nice. Plus, I wouldn't be surprised if horses turned up in the grasslands somewhere NW of the settlers current position.

The warrior I'd move NE. If it is coast, it'll be nice to see what is out there, plus you'll be able to swing a nice loop S of the capital.

Seems like Ag and AH should be your starting techs. I do like the idea of a skirmisher rush if you got a close neighbor but that blows off pottery and BW for quite a while. Still, if you've got the horses, skirmishers/chariots makes for a nice defense.

Further: I'd bet money that jungle to the SW curves around to your south.

If you want to live dangerously and do something a little different, mess with your tech path. I'm still rooting for Hunting -> Archery, though I could see Archery -> Agriculture -> Hunting. Put off BW for a little while. Have you ever done that? No? Then make that your wild hair for this round.


Waldo

VoiceOfUnreason said:

That said, I do wonder if we're going a bit overboard in treating the opening movements of the scouting unit as a tactical matter of great moment. I think you're allowed to simply do the right thing without first polling the studio audience - and if someone later persuades you that there was a superior alternative, file the trick away for next time.

Click to expand...

You might recall that posting the start grew out of the first ALC, when I instead started by posting the first few turns and everyone wondered why the heck I didn't found the capital on a very convenient plains hill. To prevent such oversights, I started posting the start.

I think it's a favourite topic for debate because we practically have a tabula rasa, with so much unknown; as the game progresses, the choices become more obvious and therefore fewer in number. And we all know what an important city the capital always turns out to be, yet we have to decide on its location without knowing all the vital facts. Founding the capital is partly a leap of faith and therefore more exciting than founding other cities, which are placed to claim resources that are plainly visible.

That being said, I'm thinking of checking for seafood, so I'll probably move the Warrior NE and post the result here next. Sound good?

Whoops, IMTS Hunting -> Agriculture -> Archery.

Animal Husbandry is a moderately expensive early tech, so Agriculture first. Make AH your fourth tech.

Build order: Worker, Scout. Don't pop any nearby huts with the Warrior. The Worker can farm the rice then mine the gems.

That should give you a good start, no? Then BW can be your fifth tech, followed by Pottery. Chop-rush a Settler and then cottage the deforested river bank, and you're off to see the Wizard.


Waldo