Resource Economy

Yaotlatoani

YaoCuauhtli
Joined
Aug 10, 2004
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176
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Bear with me on this idea since theres many gaps that has lots of room for expansion.

Resources shouldn't just be a single resource unit but more as a quantity of resources. For example, as of now, 1 horse resource supplies the whole nation with all the horses it requires. Thats just not the way it works normally. Instead there should be quantities of horses. Like a quantity of 25 horses to supply 25 military units or even better 1 horse per city for civilian needs then rest available for military units, for example 5 cities would leave only 20 horses of 25 available for military uses. Your probably wondering how to get 25 resources of horses. Well, that can be achieved through building a Pasture that will allow horses to breed over time with a single pasture holding 10 horses or 15 that can increase with later technologies and stables as well. The same for Cows, sheep and pigs, pastures built to increase their supply of available. Now the next idea is that those are animals and they should not be stationary but like any ordinary wild animal to start with that can be captured with military units and scouts that does defend itself against threats from other animals including humans too since thats still their nature but can be tamed. Keeping that in mind scouts should have a very weak attack, but enough to capture animal resources and lure them into the cities and choose a good safe and protected spot to build a pasture.

-This idea should include farming resources like into corn, wheat and rice where seeds can be taken from wild fields and brought back into the civs to be cultivated on only freshwater tiles like next to a river or lake. Quantities should arise from these resources as well. Having an x amount population points will require an x amount of these food resources or else health will begin declining.

-Plantation resources are strictly environmental so they should be tougher to transport from seeds. For example bananas and sugars can't grow in grasslands far from the equator or in plains anywhere. Spices are probably grown somewhere in between. Incense can be grown in dry climates while Dyes and Silks are static resources. These will also produce more quantities overtime that can be traded.

-Stones and Marbles are stationary which should be widely available especially in the deserts hills and mountains for stone and marble. Mountains should be navigable by only workers and scouts.

-Water Wells built to grab extra water from an oasis would be a great addition for desert cities. Along with building cottages with 1 food, 1 prod next to the water wells in desert tiles. However waterwells must be built 1st.

-The same for Mining resources that can produce quantities as well but should be diminishing quantities since they don't get renewed. Technological improvements and scouts upgrade to surveyers to search for more resources in the tiles. These surveyers look further into the earth by excavating to find new resources. They should spend 1 or 2 turns per tile to uncover new resources.

-One last thing to point out is that cottages, hamlets and villages should be unchanged until it becomes a town that use up one food for the tile.
 
I'm thinking that resources should run out eventually. Does anybody agree?
 
i hate that idea. Im not trying to be rude but i think this idea is completely stupid.
 
i hate that idea. Im not trying to be rude but i think this idea is completely stupid.

I think most people on this site agree that resources should be quantitified.

I belive there are two reasons why this was not done:

1. Creates more player (non-fun) managements of the resource
2. Would appeal to harder core fans, like those who would go to a site like this.
 
Bear with me on this idea since theres many gaps that has lots of room for expansion.

Resources shouldn't just be a single resource unit but more as a quantity of resources. For example, as of now, 1 horse resource supplies the whole nation with all the horses it requires. Thats just not the way it works normally. Instead there should be quantities of horses. Like a quantity of 25 horses to supply 25 military units or even better 1 horse per city for civilian needs then rest available for military units, for example 5 cities would leave only 20 horses of 25 available for military uses. Your probably wondering how to get 25 resources of horses. Well, that can be achieved through building a Pasture that will allow horses to breed over time with a single pasture holding 10 horses or 15 that can increase with later technologies and stables as well. The same for Cows, sheep and pigs, pastures built to increase their supply of available. Now the next idea is that those are animals and they should not be stationary but like any ordinary wild animal to start with that can be captured with military units and scouts that does defend itself against threats from other animals including humans too since thats still their nature but can be tamed. Keeping that in mind scouts should have a very weak attack, but enough to capture animal resources and lure them into the cities and choose a good safe and protected spot to build a pasture.

I would be for any reasonably user friendly quantitifiable resource implementation. I am unsure how

-This idea should include farming resources like into corn, wheat and rice where seeds can be taken from wild fields and brought back into the civs to be cultivated on only freshwater tiles like next to a river or lake. Quantities should arise from these resources as well. Having an x amount population points will require an x amount of these food resources or else health will begin declining.

-Plantation resources are strictly environmental so they should be tougher to transport from seeds. For example bananas and sugars can't grow in grasslands far from the equator or in plains anywhere. Spices are probably grown somewhere in between. Incense can be grown in dry climates while Dyes and Silks are static resources. These will also produce more quantities overtime that can be traded.

-Stones and Marbles are stationary which should be widely available especially in the deserts hills and mountains for stone and marble. Mountains should be navigable by only workers and scouts.

-Water Wells built to grab extra water from an oasis would be a great addition for desert cities. Along with building cottages with 1 food, 1 prod next to the water wells in desert tiles. However waterwells must be built 1st.

-The same for Mining resources that can produce quantities as well but should be diminishing quantities since they don't get renewed. Technological improvements and scouts upgrade to surveyers to search for more resources in the tiles. These surveyers look further into the earth by excavating to find new resources. They should spend 1 or 2 turns per tile to uncover new resources.

-One last thing to point out is that cottages, hamlets and villages should be unchanged until it becomes a town that use up one food for the tile.[/QUOTE]

I think your ideas about farming would be take the game in a different direction and am currently not sure if that is a good or bad direction.
 
True, farming would be different. Due to farming practices, in early ages resource output should be small but as technology improves, resources should increase per cultivated farms. The same goes for plantations.

If you run out of resources, then you can reseed more staple crops and cultivate them in other freshwater squares or you can trade your abundant resources with other nations for the resources you need. And if you're really low in options you can buy resources for money or lastly go to war and take their resource rich cities.

This would add a great deal to the strategy of the game. Obviously using this method, your larger cities would use up more of the resources than smaller cities. For example, a city of size 12 might need 8 resources but a city of size 4 would only need 2 resources.
 
I just would like to point out that when you want to make a change in civilization, the main thing we should be considering how it will effect gameplay. Although technicalities like quantifiable resources may be a good addition to civilizations gameplay, I think that the role that resources have in the game should be approached differently.

I can suggest two different ways of approaching the role that resorces play in the game:

Firstly, I think that resources should play a very large part in the development of technologies. So some technologies should not be researchable until access to a certain resource is attained.

Secondly, I think that certain resources, like oil for example, should be integral to civilizations. So for example, in the modern era (where oil is necessary to get to the era), if a civilization has lost the oil resource, unhappiness should rise sharply, and the city should not be able to produce or provide any food, as there is no means of supplying the population with food or labour in a modern oil based ecconomy. This may severely unbalance the game, as civilizations with oil will be at a much greater advantage then the others, however, this can be balanced by giving other resources in the game much more value, i.e, the gems, spices and other exotic resources found in the jungle should increase the gold attained from trade substantially, thus giving the civilization in possesion of those resources the gold to be able to afford oil from civilizations situated in the desert.

I really do believe that this approach to the role that resources play in the game coupled with some form of quantifiability and depleteability would give much more strategy and purpose to civilizations 4s gameplay and ultimately change it for the better, as this should be the purpose of any change in the game.
 
-This idea should include farming resources like into corn, wheat and rice where seeds can be taken from wild fields and brought back into the civs to be cultivated on only freshwater tiles like next to a river or lake. Quantities should arise from these resources as well. Having an x amount population points will require an x amount of these food resources or else health will begin declining.

I agree with you about the idea of the seeds. I think every continent should have their own ecosystem. For example, if you have wheat and oat in your native continent you need to explore new continents to discover corn seeds, and other types of agricultural plants and animals, for example.

-
- Plantation resources are strictly environmental so they should be tougher to transport from seeds. For example bananas and sugars can't grow in grasslands far from the equator or in plains anywhere. Spices are probably grown somewhere in between. Incense can be grown in dry climates while Dyes and Silks are static resources. These will also produce more quantities overtime that can be traded.

In relation to the plantation resources it's okay, but I disagree about the Dyes and Silks resources as static resources. Some traders from China have transported the silkbugs to the Mediterranean Sea. I think you can introduce those bugs to settle your forests to discover to produce silk resources - using foresters. The same goes to Dyes - most of them comes from the the Forests and Jungles - all you need to do is just plating those types of plant species on of your forests and jungles, using plantation. You can even use engineers, like those ones of civ 2, to have to create greenhouses to produce those resources in places you can't naturally plant them

-
-Stones and Marbles are stationary which should be widely available especially in the deserts hills and mountains for stone and marble. Mountains should be navigable by only workers and scouts.

No comments to say here, but I also agree with you.

-
-Water Wells built to grab extra water from an oasis would be a great addition for desert cities. Along with building cottages with 1 food, 1 prod next to the water wells in desert tiles. However waterwells must be built 1st.

I agree with you about water wells. They can be used even as an irrigation

-
-The same for Mining resources that can produce quantities as well but should be diminishing quantities since they don't get renewed. Technological improvements and scouts upgrade to surveyers to search for more resources in the tiles. These surveyers look further into the earth by excavating to find new resources. They should spend 1 or 2 turns per tile to uncover new resources.

About the prospecting unit, I agree with you - I think it could be such a scout promo, not only to discover new resources, but new types of animals and seeds. The Worker unit can even produce a colony outside your borders. And Colonies can be turned into cities if you want to.

That's my humble oipinion so far.

Dr. Pseikone
 
I agree with you about the idea of the seeds. I think every continent should have their own ecosystem. For example, if you have wheat and oat in your native continent you need to explore new continents to discover corn seeds, and other types of agricultural plants and animals, for example.

-

In relation to the plantation resources it's okay, but I disagree about the Dyes and Silks resources as static resources. Some traders from China have transported the silkbugs to the Mediterranean Sea. I think you can introduce those bugs to settle your forests to discover to produce silk resources - using foresters. The same goes to Dyes - most of them comes from the the Forests and Jungles - all you need to do is just plating those types of plant species on of your forests and jungles, using plantation. You can even use engineers, like those ones of civ 2, to have to create greenhouses to produce those resources in places you can't naturally plant them

-

No comments to say here, but I also agree with you.

-

I agree with you about water wells. They can be used even as an irrigation

-

About the prospecting unit, I agree with you - I think it could be such a scout promo, not only to discover new resources, but new types of animals and seeds. The Worker unit can even produce a colony outside your borders. And Colonies can be turned into cities if you want to.

That's my humble oipinion so far.

Dr. Pseikone

Correction: Those were not my ideas, but rather those of the original poster. (I missed a quote mark at the begining.)

My Thoughts on the post was this:
I would be for any reasonably user friendly quantitifiable resource implementation. I am unsure how your idea would be implemented in this manner. AND:

I think your ideas about farming would be take the game in a different direction and am currently not sure if that is a good or bad direction.
 
I also do not know what to think about farming in the next civ games, but something next to the colonization resource/commodity economy would be useful. If you combine to the concept to custom units like that one used in SMAC, it should make something interesting! But one thing that is necessary to consider is that every continent should have unique forests, and resources - in the Greater Navigations Era, crops seeds originally from Asia (like banana, sugar and so on) has made an incredible success huge impact onto the colonial economy when they were planted in America. I must confess, however, that I do not know how to make it simple, and friendly user to make a commodity-based economy game, where the commodity gets lower and higher prices along the time, production and technology (and why not inflation?)! Many wars has started due to dispute for the control of the resources! To make a more realistic economic behavior would be nice for the game!
 
I've been thinking about the resources system and I would suggest some changes as follows:

- every resource should yield some amount of the resource. This would give this amount of this resource to the owner of the tile with that resource and add this quantity to his resources pool (warehouse).

- some resources (like food/luxury resources) should be distributed into cities for a resource to take effect. For example, if I have fish tile, which yields 8 fish/turn, I'd need to distribute this amount among my cities, so that they have access to this resource. This could be done in two ways, either 1 fish would be sufficient for a whole city (no matter its size) or - if it is to be more complex - 1 fish unit for each population, so that this city would gain +1 health bonus.

- if I harvest 25 wheat/turn, but I only need/can spend 15 units of wheat/turn, excess would be stockpiled or could be traded (one-time trade or continuous per-turn contract). So that if I lose wheat resources, my cities could be supplied for a few more turns (so called strategical state reserves).

- strategical resources could be also needed by cities for a reason (building a wonder could be accelerated by providing an amount of stone) or for building some units (building swordsmen would require certain amount of iron) or

- for unit maintenance. Example: you don't need oil for building a tank (or only a little bit), but you definitely need oil for a tank to operate. So if you can't provide enough oil to a unit which requires it, that unit couldn't be operated at all and would be fully invulnerable to enemy attacks (pretty much like settlers/workers).

Unit maintenance can be made several ways. First of all, it could work in that way, that unit (tank) would consume its amount of resource (oil) every turn no matter what it does, or it could "eat" oil only if it operates (moves, attacks, defends, ...) and every action could have different resource consumption.

- supplying units: another idea I got is that these units requiring resources would carry some amount of resource with them and if they run out of "fuel", they would need to stop in a city, which posses that particular resource or have some other units carry resources to them.
- each unit would require food, so supplying units could become another strategical element in the game. However, food could be obtained not only by supplying unit from friendly cities, but also from pillaging enemy territory, hunting etc...
- if a unit runs out of food, it would be gradually damaged each turn (unable to heal) and eventually canceled.

Just my 2 cents, I guess it should be carefully evaluated what changed to bring into game, so that it doesn't get too much complicated.
 
This sounds too much like Colonization. Dealing with individual quantities of resources was too micromanaging and at times irritating. Thus the game only found a small niche of players who liked that sort of thing. So whenever the dreaded "warehouse" word comes into a game, most run.

Also with its implementation the rich civs will only get richer and the poor poorer. That will effectively kill any incentive to play the game if not everything goes your way. Sure some will hail it "as a challenge" but considering how most restart if they don't have copper or iron in their territory, now not having enough of a resource will necessitate a restart.

Restarts =/= Fun.
 
The idea of quantities sounds interesting, although it would make the game more "complicated".

I have an idea about the resource system that I want to share with you.
In all Civ games, resources were treated like raw materials that you extract from the terrain. How about if there are two types of resources:

- Raw Materials;
- Semi Products;

Like for example, you have a civilization that has already found a source of iron and is searching for a source of coal. You have a technology that unlocks a semi-product resource (steel), but to have access to steel you have to build a special factory (terrain improvement) that requires one iron and one coal to produce one steel.
You finally find a source of coal and gain access to it with a mine. Now you workers can finally build the factory improvement and with the steel it produces you can now upgrade your military units to make them stronger.

This concept can be apllied to other products like:

iron + coal = steel
sand + stone = glass
vines + glass = wine
cotton + dye = cloth


To build 1 steel factory you would need to have 1 source of iron and 1 source of coal. You would need another source of iron and another source of coal to be able to build a second steel factory.
One steel factory would function like 1 source of steel.
 
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