ZF1 - Zed's Training Day Game

Zed-F

Emperor
Joined
Dec 25, 2001
Messages
1,776
Copied here for future reference...

Veterans, here are your ground rules:
You start the game by playing 20 turns, then one full rotation of your team, then 10 more turns. After that, the rotation continues WITHOUT YOU, unless you feel the need to take some turns (the group is in dire straits, you really want to play, etc.). Note that your place outside the rotation does not excuse you from the game--you'll be needed even more.

Each Veteran starts his (or her; on the Internet, no one knows you're a dog) own game with the following settings:
Regent Level
Random Civ
Standard Map
Roaming Barbarians
All Opponents should be Random, with one NONE (one less opponent than typical)
The Geography should be fully Random
Play 20 turns, and if you feel the game is workable, start your game. (If it's a really bad start, say, you're on a four square island, then it's ok to start again).

Zed-F's Team:
ChrTh
Mystery13
Padma

No worker Automation (except pollution cleanup)
No goto orders crossing to the next players turn.
Don't fortify units in the middle of nowhere.
No reloading of saved games.
No loophole abuse (e.g. endless whipping)

Turn length is 10 turns, which is the RBD standard (usually exceptions made for the first round through the roster.) Many succession games use a 20 turn length. There are advantages and disadvantages either way.

First thing is, we'll need to found some cities. Here's some homework reading for you so you get a general idea of what to do...

Post on how to create a dotmap

I get the impression that ChrTh's idea is to let the rookies muddle their way through without a lot of up-front advice (so the vet doesn't dominate the decision making process) and then simply provide constructive feedback on what choices were made. So, I'm not going to post my own dotmap once we start the game -- I'll let you guys take care of that yourselves. :)

Hopefully I'll get a chance to start tonight, but I expect to be working late so I may not.
 
"I get the impression that ChrTh's idea is to let the rookies muddle their way through without a lot of up-front advice (so the vet doesn't dominate the decision making process) and then simply provide constructive feedback on what choices were made. So, I'm not going to post my own dotmap once we start the game -- I'll let you guys take care of that yourselves. "

Well, I expect some guidance at the end of your turn; for example what we need to concentrate on, where we should be building towards. The one thing I want to avoid is mid-turn discussion; I'd rather let the Rookie make a mistake on turn 4 when he gets a GL (rushes the Colossus instead of forming an army, for example) or suddenly gets a demand from Catherine for some gold. I do want extensive discussion both pre-turn and post-turn. My fear is only that the rookies will get paralyzed in their turn if they keep looking for help (making the game run forever).
 
Zed-F,

Once you start the game, give us a post to let us know what Civ we got... (unless you finish all 20 turns right away, obviously)

EDIT: Also post a link for your team in the main thread.
 
Ok guys, so far everybody else has gotten "expansionist"...will we complete the quadfecta?
 
4000 BC (0): We start out as China; we are Industrious and Militaristic, not a bad combination, and we get Riders, an awesome unit, nearly as good for their age as the fabled Panzers are for theirs. With a civ like this, we're almost certainly going to have some fun with Middle Ages combat. :) Also, we're in very lush lands -- a couple bonus grasslands, some hills, some forest, a wheat, and on a lake!

ZF1 - save file, 4000 BC

ZF1-china-4000bc.jpg



Peering through the fog at neighboring tiles, I see a hill NE of us, and what looks like a second wheat to our SW. Hmm, having 2 wheat in range would allow us to grow super fast... but our lands are already quite good for food, it might be better to save that 2nd wheat for another city, and get a couple more hills in radius, so that eventually we can work those hills using irrigated grasslands for food. I move our settler one tile NE, while our worker starts on a mine.

3950 BC (1): We found Beijing. Woot, we have incense in our radius, and TONS of hills. Looks like a good call to move NE, our capital is going to ROCK for production in the not too distant future. Not only that, there's a river to our west, good for our second city. The only problem is there's coastline on the other side of those hills, so our capital may not be really close to being central to our empire. That's what FPs are for, though. We start researching Ceremonial Burial at max rate and begin a warrior scout.

3900-3700 BC (2-6): zzz. We finish the mine and build a road... our worker moves off to a plains on the other side of the city to irrigate it and build a road toward the incense and the bonus wheat tile, which is currently out of cultural range.

3650 BC (7): We build a warrior for scouting purposes, and start a settler. I'm going for the farmer's gambit! Here we ignore defense for the first several turns on the premise that we are unlikely to encounter anyone really early, and if we do they are unlikely to be able to attack us, in the hopes of founding more cities sooner so as to get a production and economic advantage. Our scout discovers there is indeed a wheat to our SW, great spot for our second city.

3600-3500 BC (8-10): We explore, and build roads/irrigation.

3450 BC (11): Our cultural borders expand to include the bonus wheat tile, and we start irrigating it. We spot a cattle to the N of Beijing on some plains, and our explorer spots an Elephant and a goody hut to our west. There seem to be lots of rivers around here. Makes you wonder if the AIs have lands this good...

3350 BC (13): We discover Ceremonial Burial, and start Bronze Working. I'd like to get that and Iron Working, for defense purposes, then start on the path to Republic. That usually gives the best economic results, and with all these hills we need to get rid of our despotic penalties quickly. We pop the goody hut, and get barbarians. :( Fortunately, this is only Regent (barbs get penalties) and we're on a mountain...

3300 BC (14): Our warrior handily busts up the barbs without so much as a scratch, and promotes to elite! Ah, the joys of being militaristic. :)

3200 BC (16): Our warrior spots another bonus cattle to our west. Our worker starts building a road to the incense hill. Next up: a road to our new city, as it should be founded soon.

3150 BC (17): Beijing grows to 3, and is unhappy because I didn't build any MP. Not to worry, we'll just raise the lux tax temporarily until the settler is done. I micromanage Beijing to give us 4 shields this turn and 3 shields next for maximum food growth and to complete the settler in 2 turns with no shield waste. Micromanaging is easy when you only have a handful of cities... :)

3050 BC (19): We complete our settler! He's off to found near that wheat. Our incense is connected, and Beijing is smaller, so we no longer need lux tax. Beijing will grow in 4 turns, but will waste 3 food in doing so, so somewhere in there we can micromanage it to trade that extra 3 food for shields. Our worker is off to build a road to our new city.

3000 BC (20): Our settler moves on to the bonus wheat, but shouldn't build there, he can go a bit farther before founding. Our warrior moves south and spots some coast. That suggests a good spot for our next city to the south of where our settler is standing, so it can be on the coast -- this allows harbours and shipbuilding -- as well as on a river, so as to get extra trade and not need to build an aqueduct. It should still pick up the bonus wheat tile even without a temple, since its 1-square radius border should automatically extend to intersect our capital's border, as there will only be one square between the two.

ZF1 - save file, 3000 BC

ZF1-china-3000bc.jpg



Ok, I said I wasn't going to make a dotmap, but then ChrTh suggested some guidance was appropriate, so I went ahead and made one. Key factors on this dotmap: proximity to capital, no wasted squares, and access to fresh water! All of those are very important to the future growth of a city. There is a bit of overlap, but that's not too critical until we get to the Industrial age, and a little bit of overlap won't hurt much. Blue dot is top priority, followed by Red and Yellow; the latter might move slightly (but not off the river) depending on what else is in the unexplored areas N and E of it. Of course, there's the area S of Beijing to consider as well, though that's likely to be a peninsula by the look of things; we might only be able to get a couple of cities down there depending on how far it extends. We're near the bottom edge of the map, so it can't go too far. Regardless, the ones we want to found first are those with (a) lowest corruption, and (b) best potential for growth in the short term. All of these fit the bill, although a bit less so for Yellow; it's mostly plains & forests, but it should be able to get one grassland right away by border expansion up to Beijing's borders, similar to how Blue dot should get the bonus wheat, and it shouldn't be too hard to irrigate a couple plains with the river right there. We might want to wait to found that one last out of our top priority cities both so we get a chance to explore up there and so we can build a couple more workers first.

We have lots of secondary priorities as well: for instance, to found cities on the coast N and E of Yellow dot to pick up that land and coast, and the same holds for the area W and NW of Red and Blue dots. We probably also want to found a city up near that bottleneck at some point so as to keep our main core safe from attack. Fortunately, we soon will have 2 cities able to grow and pump out settlers quickly, as well as workers to improve these cities and connect them up!

Soon we're going to have to start worrying about defense as well as founding cities. I left Beijing on warrior since right now we mainly need MP and we will want to build another settler soon, but we can't go completely without military for too much longer. Once we get Bronze Working we should seriously consider building a couple spearmen to protect our cities. I expect Beijing should be able to build a another settler first, though, after the warrior, or at least a worker.
 
Above all, we want RAPID GROWTH in our cities.
- Rapid growth = more settlers = more cities = more production, cash, research, and free support units under Despotism.
- Rapid growth also = bigger cities = more production, cash and research, and easier to defend cities.
- Rapid growth also = more workers = more production, cash, research, more growth, and more resources connected to our road network.

NEVER limit growth to get more shields, unless it's just for a turn or two, at least at this stage of the game.

If you are having problems keeping cities happy due to size, you have a couple options:
- build a worker or settler!
- connect/trade for more lux resources
- raise the lux tax -- the extra production & cash out of a bigger city almost invariably pays for the extra lux tax, especially once we get out of Despotism. This is especially effective if you only need it on a temporary basis while taking one of the other actions on this list; however, even a semi-permanent lux tax is a worthwhile option, and usually pays for itself.
- Building an improvement that generates more happiness (temple, market, cathedral) or a wonder that does the same
- More MP, if allowed by your government.
- Your LAST option should be making entertainers. Only do this if you only need one or two throughout the entire empire, and never in a wonder city. Raise the lux tax instead if it's more than that.
 
I have a question about "Blue Dot": does it get the benefit of the river?

I'm guessing I'm up...I created a Word doc out of what Zed just wrote to review...I'll have some more questions. I'll be playing tonight.
 
Comments and Questions:

That has to be the sweetest starting location I've ever seen! Of course, with my luck, the Persians will be next door...

Does an inland lake confer the same no-aqueduct benefit that a river does?

Why are we irrigating? I thought with despotism you can never get more than 2 food from a square?

Did you do an F11 to see what over Civs are out there?

What are the Riders reqs anyway? I think the Strategy Guide is wrong on that one. Chivalry? Do we need Iron/Horses?
 
Originally posted by ChrTh
Comments and Questions:

That has to be the sweetest starting location I've ever seen! Of course, with my luck, the Persians will be next door...

Does an inland lake confer the same no-aqueduct benefit that a river does?

Why are we irrigating? I thought with despotism you can never get more than 2 food from a square?

Did you do an F11 to see what over Civs are out there?

What are the Riders reqs anyway? I think the Strategy Guide is wrong on that one. Chivalry? Do we need Iron/Horses?

Despotism causes you to lose 1 food for 3+ squares.
Cattle square is 4 - becomes 3 under depostism, and irragates to 4! Wheat also benefits. This is a great way to create an early settler / worker source.

Any fresh water creates the no aqueduct benefit - however, some things like hoover require a RIVER.

War Elephants, Samurai, Riders are a special version of the knight.
 
Thanks Lee! :)


Ok, this is what I'm thinking:
Settle on Blue Dot to form Seaside Heights (or whatever goofy name I think of :) )
Send Warrior building in Beijing SE to make sure we're right and that it is a peninsula
After Warrior is built, start building Settler in Beijing (probably won't finish before my turn, but if so, will head towards Red Dot--unless a better spot is found SE)
Current Warrior will go SW to explore.
Worker will build road to Seaside Heights, and if completed during my turn, will mine shielded grassland directly NW of Seaside Heights

Did I miss anything? ;)

I'm wondering if we should look to relocate Yellow dot a little bit...there's a grassland spot on a river surrounded by THREE floodplains that would be a tremendous settler/worker generator (unless there's a flaw in that logic)...if we could find a workable spot east of the current Yellow dot location, then we could squeeze it in...perhaps I'll send the currently building warrior N when it's complete

What should Seaside Heights build first? Another warrior for exploration?
 
Does an inland lake confer the same no-aqueduct benefit that a river does?

Why are we irrigating? I thought with despotism you can never get more than 2 food from a square?

Did you do an F11 to see what over Civs are out there?

What are the Riders reqs anyway? I think the Strategy Guide is wrong on that one. Chivalry? Do we need Iron/Horses?

1) Yes, like Lee said, but you don't get the commerce benefit of a river. Blue dot is definately on the river -- rivers go along square borders and corners count, but watch out for river sources (usually on mountains) as the mountain square sourcing the river does not count as a river! An easy way to check is to view the terrain details (right click on the square) and see if it has any gold. If it has a gold and there's no road, it's a river tile.

2) Like Lee said, you can get more than 2 by irrigating if it produces more than 2 food to begin with. This is almost always a Good Idea. :) Moreover, it is sometimes worthwhile to irrigate grassland even in despotism, if (a) it allows you to get water to some tile/area that needs it, or (b) if you expect to be changing governments soon and can use an immediate food boost as soon as that happens.

3) No, I didn't, I usually just wait to make contact. You can if you like!

4) AFAIK, you need Iron, Horses, and Chivalry.

Worker will build road to Seaside Heights, and if completed during my turn, will mine shielded grassland directly NW of Seaside Heights. :)

Did I miss anything?

Remember what I said about rapid growth... we want to irrigate that wheat near Seaside Heights ASAP. This is one of those situations where we will want to irrigate rather than mine a grassland in order to get water to a tile that needs it. Our first citizen should be working that wheat, and only our second will be working the bonus grassland. Because we're Industrious, after the road, we can irrigate 2 tiles quickly. We probably won't grow before we can irrigate the grass, so I'd say go for that 1st, then improve the bonus grassland.

Yellow Dot can certainly be revisited once we get a better idea of what's up there, but where I have it right now it can already access some (at least one) floodplains. Floodplains with irrigation are decent food sources, but because they only give 1 extra food over a grassland you need to work more than one to get a lot of benefit, and floodplains produce no shields at all, so that city tends to be starved for shields. Moreover, you also have to worry about disease with floodplains. I wouldn't want to move Yellow Dot further away from our capital just to get more floodplains, because then it would start wasting tiles, including a bonus grassland, and it would increase corruption at Yellow Dot. I'd rather use those floodplains to feed a city a bit further away where there's more waste/corruption so it matters less if it can't pump out a lot of shields to begin with, and so we're getting better overall use of our lands -- I expect there's coast up there, so there may not be a lot of land tiles to begin with for city N of Yellow Dot; we don't want to steal some away from it by moving Yellow Dot further out.

Seaside Heights 1st build... well, something quick so we can grow a bit before starting on a settler? Or, maybe even start on a settler right away? If we irrigate the wheat we should grow big enough before we accumulate the required shields. How about a worker? You pick. :) We should start seeing barbs sometime soon so we can't send unescorted settlers out too far for much longer, but we might be able to get away with a couple more.

EDIT: It does look like a 3rd exploring warrior would be useful, so we could send one south, one west, and one north. A perfectly viable option.
 
I'd move red dot one tile to the SW. This, assuming yellow stays in place and the whole map isn't reworked because of surprises in the fog.
 
Could be. Would reduce overlap by one square, at the cost of slightly more corruption and a wasted mountain, and would get the cattle in radius when we build a temple. Since Red Dot will be one of our least corrupted cities, it might be better to get that cattle in range of Red Dot so we can grow Red Dot faster (not immediately, but after we get a temple and some irrigation out there,) and it might let us shift Yellow Dot over a bit as well if we need to make more room for a city east of Yellow Dot. On the other hand, there might be a city on the far side of Red Dot we could fit in, that would be squeezed if we moved Red Dot further out, so without knowing what's out there it's hard to judge. I was originally thinking of saving the cattle for that city since there's lots of grass around Red Dot, but it may not be worthwhile, or there may be more bonus resources out that way anyway.

Overall, I'm not too worried about overlap, since I don't expect the game to last very far into the Industrial age. This is Regent, after all, and we're China, so I expect we'll be a good way into conquering the world by the time we get to Hospitals.

Bottom line, we really can't make a "perfect" dot map until we have complete knowledge of the areas we plan to settle. :) So, I fully expect the dot map to get revised.
 
Guys, if you want to borrow a page from Sirian's (and now Arathorn's) take on a Training Day game, and want to shadow the player that's up, be my guest. As has been said, the more you play, the more comments you get.

However, you'll have to be fairly quick on the draw. I'm not going to institute any hard deadlines, but I'll only discuss results for the current turn -- make sure you post them AFTER the official player that's up (we don't want your turn results influencing their decisions) and BEFORE the next official turn results are posted, if you want comments on them! If you haven't been following the other threads, the official turn is the turn of the player that's up -- shadow turns don't count for anything but commentary.

Rather than include a save file for shadow turns, just post a turn summary (and screenies if you like) -- the more info I can glean from your post, the better comments you'll get. I don't think I would have the time/opportunity to look at save files for shadow turns anyway.
 
Turn 0 -- 3000 BC
Tried to remember what I said I would do earlier :)
Reviewed the situation, everything looked spiffy

Turn 1 -- 2950 BC
Set worker building road
Warrior exposes Goody Hut

Turn 2 -- 2900 BC
A friendly tribe gave us a skilled warrior; I'm sending this guy E-SE. It looks like the left coast does not extend much further.
Settler moved into position to form Dockonda Bay; DB is going to have 4 shielded grasslands!

Turn 3 -- 2850 BC
Beijing micro-managed for growth
Dockonda Bay founded! Micromanaged for growth; worker ordered.
Worker completes road, move into position to irrigate Wheat for Dockonda Bay (if possible, I may have to irrigate one over)
Looks like there's going to be a nice spot SW of Dockonda Bay (on the coast)--will have fish and game.

Turn 4 -- 2800 BC
The people upgrade my rock hut!
Can't irrigate Wheat; building road (this is me admitting I wasted a turn! Doh!)

Turn 5 -- 2750 BC
Warrior in Beijing done. Ordering up Settler, due in 15 turns, although that will be reduced when Beijing grows in 3 turns.
Warrior heads North.

Turn 6 -- 2700 BC
More map revealed, road done.

Turn 7 -- 2650, er, 2670 BC
Bronze Working learned! Iron working ordered up. 21 turns...
More map revealed. Worker begins irrigating. Apparently, civ rethinks calendar, causing much leader confusion :)

Turn 8 -- 2630 BC
More map revealed. Looks like there isn't much to the SE.

Turn 9 -- 2590 BC
Irrigation done, road ordered to connect cities.
More map revealed; goody hut revealed (although I won't get to pop it!). Also, there appears to be more land to the North than originally thought.

Turn 10 -- 2550 BC
More map revealed...and there, in the furthest reaches of the darkness...a border! It looks like Iriquois, but if so, it's odd that we haven't run into a scout...is anyone else dark purple?

Weesa bout to make contact!
Things to do:
Pop Goody Hut :)
Keep exploring
After worker finishes road, irrigate wheat

I've created this dot-map...the only thing that is hard to see is the game directly east of yellow dot

ZF1-2550bc.jpg


I think we should try to get purple than blue or gray first--we don't want someone stealing our Ivory! Someone may want to take a shot at this dot map--let me know what I did wrong!

Here's the save
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/ZF1-china-2550BC.zip
 
Green dot is a BAD choice.

When you build a city on a wheat / cow / game etc you will NOT get the full potential of the tile.

The spot you settler will go to 2 food, 1 shield - that is usually it.
Build a city on a grassland shield - 2 food, 1 shield - you can't mine the extra square.

I can't read the dot-map well, but it look like shift it to we the warrior is.

Also, the blue x square are throwing away a cattle square.
 
Originally posted by LKendter
Green dot is a BAD choice.

When you build a city on a wheat / cow / game etc you will NOT get the full potential of the tile.

The spot you settler will go to 2 food, 1 shield - that is usually it.
Build a city on a grassland shield - 2 food, 1 shield - you can't mine the extra square.

I can't read the dot-map well, but it look like shift it to we the warrior is.

Also, the blue x square are throwing away a cattle square.

I concur about the Green Dot; I think my logic was that if you put it where the warrior is, you're sharing two spots with Beijing...of course, putting it where the warrior is drops you from 5 wasted tiles to 1.

I didn't want to waste the cow either (blue X), but Zed had indicated his preference that the Pink dot city be on the river. If we move Pink dot one to the right, you reduce the number of shared spaces (with gray and purple)--but again you're sharing one with Beijing. You drop the number of wasted spaces from 4 to 1...but you lose the river. What's the better choice?
 
ChrTh,

I played this one as you played. You had better luck with goody huts. All I popped were angry barbarians. I did end up with a couple of elite warriors from that though. :D

And don't feel TOO bad about trying to irrigate the wheat before you could. I irrigated the WRONG TILE! I could have shot myself when I realized what I had done! :mad: And I STILL had to go back and irrigate another tile before I could do the wheat!

Lee has already pointed out the reason to not settle on the wheat at the green dot. As for the Pink one, I concur with you. I would move it one to the right. Of course, I have trouble beating Regent....:rolleyes:
 
I'm wondering if that water (up by Grey Dot city) is actually a lake, not a coast, and the land in the NE wraps around...

BTW, I'm having family over starting tomorrow night, so I probably won't be in the discussion from roughly 6pm tomorrow (EST) to 10am Monday (EST) [EDIT: I'd be able to take my next turn that evening]...that doesn't mean I'm not playing! If it comes to be my turn in that interim, I'd appreciate waiting the couple days rather than skipping me, but I'll leave that up to you guys.

I resisted the urge to hit F11, because it's something I normally don't do.

To summarize the discussion right above:

1) What's better, a city on a river, or a city in a more optimal location? It's the Pink Dot question.

I'm upset no one liked my Dockonda Bay pun
:sheep:
 
Resist the temptation to hit F11? It's great source of information, check it early and often! Believe me, you need all the help you can get on the harder difficulties, and F11 has a lot of goodies like telling you just how strong you are in important categories like productivity, territory, etc.

It also can lead to some amusing results, like when I checked F11 in my Regent OCC game and discovered that my one city had a higher population than someone's entire civ! (In 500AD, not super-early) :lol:
 
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