Red Storm Rising - World War II on the Eastern Front

[ww2commander]

RED STORM RISING
The Great Patriotic War
World War II on the Eastern Front

This is a discussion and dairy thread for the WW2 Eastern Front scenario I am currently working on. The scenario will include many features that will give it that unique Eastern Front warfare feel of World War II.

Scenario status as at 15th May 2007:

OVERALL STATUS: 50%

• Map - 100% outline of region
• Cities - 100%
• Leaderheads - 100%
• Religions - 100% (They will represent ideologies in the game)
• Technologies - 100% (May revise down the track depending on other components)
• Units - 80%
• Terrain - 75% (trees, hills, mountains, resources etc.)
• Civics - 75%
• Buildings, city size, improvements - 40%
• Promotions - 10%
• Civilopedia - 2%
• Civilization Traits and Defaults - 0%
• Events - 0%
• Eye candy - 15%

Concepts and things I want or would like to include in the scenario:

• Civs - Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, Finland, Sweden, Allies (US & UK)
• Game will be played from the Soviet perspective (ala Civ2 Red Front). This will allow better usage of special events and triggers.
• Seasonal weather (representing Russian winters)
• Unique promotion system specific to each side
• Military Units unique to the period
• Fuel and Supply resource management (thanks to Duke176 )
• Arctic Convoy system (including Lend Lease)
• New terrain features such as marshes, bunkers and trenches
• Replace civic system with one that represents war production and mobolization better
• Buildings specific to the region and cities
• Wonders specific to the region and cities
• Realistic event and triggers

NOTICE: Due to a comment that was made on this thread, I would like to strongly advise that this project is apolitical and any discussion about political, ideological or racist views with regards to any nation that fought on the Eastern Front should not be made. Please respect that many people on this forum come from countries that may have been affected by occupation during World War II or post-WW2. This project is about playing and having fun with Civ 4 and not emphasising a political, ideological or racial opinion.

[ww2commander]

Reserved for future updates

[ww2commander]

Reserved for future updates - 2

[ww2commander]

Reserved for future updates - 3

[Paasky]

I think the reason it was only playable on one side in civ2 was that the map & rules had to be pre-made for one side to be ai. But now you can do all sorts fo stuff with python, with the gc.getPlayer(#).isHuman() command

[ww2commander]

I thought hard about this area and came to the conclusion that it is easier to focus on the detail of one civ rather than all of them. In addition it seems more appealing to play the underdog rather than Germany.

This would also make it easier for events and areas where the AI might not know how to work such as Lend Lease and defence lines.

After I release it, people are more than welcome to make a 'all-civ play' version

[ww2commander]

Ok, I have managed to incorporate Oil as a crucial part of the scenario. Thanks to Duke176's oil counter mod, I can now simulate the importance of the Caucasus and Ploesti oilfields.

I have done a test and units now require oil (fuel) to move per turn....run out of oil and your armoured forces will come to a grinding halt.

I will continue to test as the scenario grows

You can find Duke176's Oil Mod here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=194293

[Paasky]

I was thinking of adding this into my scenario as well... Maybe even with other resources like iron & coal. How does it work? Does it add a lot of extra stuff to worry about?

[ww2commander]

Apart from the XML files which were a cut and paste, he has also modified the SDK so there is a DLL file that needs to be a part of your mod. I dont have a clue how to mod the SDK so I am very grateful Duke176 took the time to work it out. I sent him a PM but I dont know if he still visits the forum.

I gather the modifications he made in the SDK could possibly be easily copy/pasted to make new resource counters. I would love to have an iron/steel resource counter as well as oil.

[ww2commander]

'Good News Everyone!'.....to quote Paasky

I just received a reply back from Duke176 and he is back on the project. He has not abandoned his mod but has slowed down finalising it due to lack of time and unfortunately lack of positive feedback

The good news is that he is pleased to hear that his mod will be a center feature in this scenario and has offered to complete the mod in the hopes that it makes this scenario and others more realistic.

Hopefully we could also see additional counters for other important ww2 resource.....we could represent the Ural and Norway mining as well as oil

Guys and girls......please pop by Duke176's project threads and show him some support for the great work he is doing

Oil counter tutorial: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=201247
Oil mod porject: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=194293

[ww2commander]

Ok, here is a rough list of units included in the game so far.

Right now I am in the process of sorting out all the stats and requirements.

Units I have on my wish list but dont exist yet are:
- Soviet looking general/warlord
- Karl Mortar or Dora Guns
- Pe-2 Bomber - Update 30/03/07: Paasky is in the process of making this place
- Static garrison gun/huge bunker

[Paasky]

Typo fixes
Soviet Truck = Zis-6
Il-2 Sturmovik
Pz IV-F (short barrel)
Pz IV-J (long barrel)
Pz IV-H (skirts) (FYI, skirts stop all RPG-style AT, like bazookas & fausts/shrecks from doing any damage)
88mm Flak
T-34/76

You might want to add Battlecruisers, which the Soviets had a lot of (although they were WWI standard). Also, you've got the Su-76 as AT, but Su-85 & ISU-152 as tanks?

EDIT: You might want to change the P-47 into the P-39 Airacobra. The Soviets used thousands of them with great results. I'm modeling it atm.

[ww2commander]

Thanks for having a look over the list Paasky.

1. Soviet truck is just a generic term I plan to use...but the model is the Zis-5b. I need to change both the Soviet and German trucks to something more generic like 'motorised infantry'.
2. I got three spellings from my books...Stormovick, Shturmovik and Sturmovik (yours)!!!! Damn books
3. With the PzIV...I dont want to get down to the very marks as it gets too much. In game terms they will represent an early and late medium tank unit. I will however put the mark against them for civilopedia purposes.
4. 88mm is what I am used to but I keep reading more references to it as 8.8cm. I will change to 88mm.
5. T-34 was a typo
6. SU-76 is going to be artillery (complements the Wespe in game terms)
7. My bad...these were a cut and paste error. They will end up being Self-propelled AT units

Darn its getting too late and I am not thinking straight I also bought a great book today that has a day-by-day break down of the eastern front. Another one to add to my already large collection of ww2 books

Quick question: Which unit tag defines gun strength versus armour strength? I gather iCombat is armour strength.

[Paasky]

1) Yeah, I made Motorized into an attachment, which I think works very nicely. As you need Barracks to make infantry, but any town can build trucks (although quite slowly)
2) Might be because the correct spelling is Штурмовик The pronounciation is closer to ShturmOvikh.
3) Well, Pz IV-F = 1940, IV-J = 1941-1942, IV-H = 1943+
4) The correct name is Flak18/36 or something, but everyone knows what an "eighty-eight" is
5)
6) Wouldn't the Katyusha be closer to the Wespe? The Su-76 was the AT-tank during the first year of Barbarossa. EDIT: saw the Wurf 40. Maybe this will help you with the numerous SU & ISU's: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...opelled_guns_3
EDIT2: Ah, it seems the su-76 was also monted a howitzer. My knowledge of WWII is mostly from Forgotten Hope

iCombat is the strength. Use UnitCombats & UnitClassAttack & Defense for +vs certain types of units. There's no such thing as Gun & Armor strength in civ4.

[ww2commander]

With relation to the unit choices, I have tried to include units that complement each other from the soviet and axis side, except for the tanks where everybody has a field day.

To add some more info:
2) I will go with your spelling as the 'Sh' spelling is rare in my books.
4) Your correct . Once again, in -game they will be simply called AA Guns.
6) The SU-76 was an infantry support vehicle, similar...if you want to think of it....like the Stug III was to the Germans. However it seems to always be classified as a SP Artillery vehicle (as you mentioned because of the 122mm version). As it provided indirect fire support I guess it would fit this battlefield role. For game terms it will also provide bombard ability. The SU-85 and ISU-152 unfortunately had limited gun elevation and movement.

Combat Stats
So if I understand correctly :
- iCombat would be used to represent the unit's own strength (armour as I keep thinking).
- UnitCombats & UnitClassAttack & Defense would represent the strength of the unit attacking or defending (gun strength in my case).

Thus a tiger's thick armour would be represented by iCombat and its powerfull 88 would be represented within the UnitCombatAttack section.

[Paasky]

Combats:
I see, you want the iCombat (the strength shown ingame) to represent the unit's armor, or how much damage it can take, correct?
And then use <UnitCombatMods>, <UnitClassAttackMods>, <UnitClassDefenseMods> & <DomainMods> to represent their attacking capabilities?

So, say the Tiger has a strength of 10, and it's highly effective 88 gun would give it a +100% vs UNITCOMBAT_ARMOR. While the Panzer II, for example, would have a strength of only 5, but the dual MG's & speed would give it a +100% vs UNITCOMBAT_GUN?

I'll just give examples here, to make things that much simpler for you
UnitClassAttackMods (+50% strength when attacking against unitclass_infantry):

<UnitClassAttackMods>
	<UnitClassAttackMod>
		<UnitClassType>UNITCLASS_INFANTRY</UnitClassType>
		<iUnitClassMod>50</iUnitClassMod>
	</UnitClassAttackMod>
</UnitClassAttackMods>

UnitClassDefenseMods (+50% strength when defending against unitclass_mobile_arty or _rocket_arty):

<UnitClassDefenseMods>
	<UnitClassDefenseMod>
		<UnitClassType>UNITCLASS_MOBILE_ARTY</UnitClassType>
		<iUnitClassMod>50</iUnitClassMod>
	</UnitClassDefenseMod>
	<UnitClassDefenseMod>
		<UnitClassType>UNITCLASS_ROCKET_ARTY</UnitClassType>
		<iUnitClassMod>50</iUnitClassMod>
	</UnitClassDefenseMod>
</UnitClassDefenseMods>

UnitCombatMods (+50% strength when fighting against any artillery unit):

<UnitCombatMods>
	<UnitCombatMod>
		<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_SIEGE</UnitCombatType>
		<iUnitCombatMod>50</iUnitCombatMod>
	</UnitCombatMod>
</UnitCombatMods>

DomainMods (+50% strength when fighting against any air unit (AFAIK it increases the damage to the aircraft if it's intercepted)):

<DomainMods>
	<DomainMod>
		<DomainType>DOMAIN_AIR</DomainType>
		<iDomainMod>50</iDomainMod>
	</DomainMod>
</DomainMods>

Remember when counting the correct strengths for balance: +200% = orig strength + (orig strength * 2), not orig strength * 2 I got mixed up several times before I pounded that into my head...


I seriously hope I'm wrong with this, but you have noticed civ4 doesn't have attack & defense separately?

[ww2commander]

This is kind of making sense except for the balance strength part!!!! Whats that all about and why 200%.

Also....do the four examples relate to one unit (for my understanding purposes) or are they random examples irrespective of unit?

EDIT: I am at work right now but I have had time to look over the tags mentioned and they make full sense to me except the calculation for balance. Can you elaberate on this for me please.

[Paasky]

I meant when you start balancing your unit strengths. To create the paper-rock-scissors effect that default civ has. (ie paper < scissors < rock < paper, or in civ terms: axeman < horse archer < spearman < axeman)
In my scenario, it basically goes like this:
Infantry < Light Tanks < Medium Tanks < Tank Destroyers < Infantry.

My infantry strength is 10, and my light tank strength is 8. So, to win infantry, the light tank must get a +50% bonus vs infantry (8 + 8*0,5 = 12).
Then the medium Tank must win the light tank, so it gets a strength of 10.
Now, as my Tank Destroyer has to win tanks and lose to infantry, it's strength has to be small, say 6, but has to win the medium tank, so I give it a +100% bonus vs tanks (6 + 6*1 = 12).
So, now I've got a 4-way paper-scissors-rock-style balance in the units.
Ofcourse there are several other units to add into the equation, and you have to make sure that the next generation of units beat the old, and are still properly adjusted against each other. But that was a simplified example.

[ww2commander]

Ok...that clears it up more for me. I will setup my spreadsheet at home to auto-calculate these values and juggle them around abit.

Much appreciate the feedback Paasky

[darkedone02]

you spelled Finland wrong! oh and this might be a nice mod depending how you can compete with other mods that did the same thing.