Technology tree & Game eras

joelwest

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this post is copied from post 853, page 43, of main SotM mod forum.

my later posts in this thread will try to parse this material for development work.

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RE: the isolation tech (event) . . .
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woodelf said:
Basically the Isolation is the event that cuts off the Colonists from Earth. Whether that is because of problems Earthside, sabotage Lunar side, or something else we never specified. That event changes the transfer of He-3 to Earth for food to a total need for the Moon to be self-sufficient.

the isolation event/tech occured so early in the game I hardly missed the He-3.

however now that you have explained what the isolation event/tech signifies, this could be the event that triggers the alien artifacts that lead to moon religions. :ninja:
 
Do we even want the Isolation Event anymore?

This has nothing to do with the tech tree, but it's important to think about.

As far as the tech tree is concerned, I love the first era and the second isn't bad. If we change the scope of the mod then we'll need to alter the techs as well, but the "Survival" era isn't bad, except for how easy it is to actually survive. ;)
 
Mmm, Let's keep the Isolation event, but to make things easy we could simulate provisions arriving from Earth through a GP (specialist) prior to the event. Once Isolation occurs, this GP disappears.
I'm starting to think it might be best to begin anew, and incorporate the stuff that looked worthwhile.
 
Starting anew is a bit scary since we don't have a python guy. :scared:

Are there any complete XML files you think could be salvaged?
 
Do you know which python files do what in the SotM mod? :p
The only thing sofar that would need python is for a revised moonmap creator (IMO) and an event manager.
As far as I know at least, can you think of other stuff that needs python?
 
Isn't the Isolation Event python or simply an XML cutoff?

What about the turrets? Unneeded?
Attrition?
Starter Civics? Are they python?

I don't even know what an Event Manager is!
 
this post is copied from post 999, page 50, of main SotM mod forum.

my later posts in this thread will try to parse this material for development work.

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:strength: re: barrenness on the Moon . . .

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An opinion:
I think, since so few units are available and the Moon is such a barren place the mod should be centered upon survival of humanity after some kind of apocalypse on the motherworld.

No need for fancy advanced stuff IMO, just the gritty stages of becoming viable again and perhaps seek out better horizons.

this would involve a total rework of the mod. as it stands now FOOD, not barrenness is the dominant theme. as I have discussed previously FOOD springs out of nothingness in this mod althought the AI cannot seem to figure out how to do this.

Spoiler :

as I have also discussed previously the Genetic Screening civic should be adopted on turn one since it enables the eng specialist for every tile without limit. this places the human player at an immense advantage over the AI.

only once it is horribly losing does the AI check out the civics of who is beating it and adopt them.


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the mod originally intended for the break off from earth to be a radical departure. however the first time I played the game, admittedly on a non-moon map, I did not even notice this happen. later plays on the moon based maps were hardly more notable in life before and after the break from earth.

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woodelf mentioned (in post 985) "eras" of the game in response to your comments.

the game still has the space race to Alpha Centauri enabled although it does not make any gamesense. if the space race is to be a final era after the break from the earth the space race needs to have Mars, not Alpha Centauri, as its destination.

another idea for a third and final era would be for a building program to make the particular civ on the Moon militarily defensible against attack ala SDI. once defensible the victory condition would be enabled. (this would involve a massive overhaul of the code for the space race.)

the most complex idea for a third and final era that occurs to me is to finally meet the aliens who left the debris behind (goody huts only found on the moon based map). the building program could culminate in a language translator and space port to welcome the aliens. once all the alien welcoming structures and technologies are built the victory condition would be enabled. if an alien era ending is pursued vanilla civ 4's religion could be introduced into the mod earlier in the game as being various sects from various alien races. this would certainly give the game a more sf overall feel.
 
Do we even want the Isolation Event anymore?

This has nothing to do with the tech tree, but it's important to think about.

from my point of view the tech tree and the game eras are inextricably linked. hence I have renamed this thread to incorporate both.

if a lengthy discussion of the number, quality, and type of game eras is to ensue we could of course start a new game era thread. however this way we permanently document from the start what overall parameters were used to constuct the tech tree.

vanilla Civ 4 of course has four eras, though none intended by as transformative as an Isolation Event.

As far as the tech tree is concerned, I love the first era and the second isn't bad.

If we change the scope of the mod then we'll need to alter the techs as well, but the "Survival" era isn't bad, except for how easy it is to actually survive. ;)
this is the first time I have read anyone in these posting forums say that the first era of the SotM mod needs to be "very tough" to survive. this new concept needs a lot of exploration in order to flesh out.

for convenience we will call this idea "Disaster World" or DW for short.

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does this mean some of the starting civs will usually not make it in DW and die out fairly rapidly?

the first corollary to the DW concept that springs to mind is that DW rules out barbarian civs. if the moon is that harsh a mistress they would never be there at all - unless of course they were aliens descending from spacecraft.

if the colonists were struggling that much this would imply that they would not have the resources to change their civics until after the isolation event (IE).

I am not sure what player reaction would be if theirs was one of the civs that did not make it. would it be possible to start over (unlike vanilla Civ 4)?

in the past there has been discussion in these forums of meteor storms, solar flares, and other disruptive events. the DW scenario would by definition have to have a lot of these types of events. even after the IE such disasters would always loom and there would have to be techs available to research that would prevent disaster from striking on a random basis.

there has also been past discussion in these forums of the idea of using subways instead of roads due to the moon's harsh environment. this would also be a natural corollary to the DW scenario.

before I ramble on more about DW I want to make sure the whole development team buys into the concept of a rough start.

this would of course mean a virtual rewrite of the code from the ground up, and so is not a choice to be made lightly.

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at this point if we are indeed working from a blank state, we need to propose competing ideas for the various eras of the Moon. we also need to rapidly decide if Aliens will actually be a part of this mod. for lack of a better description I now will call the Final Era "Alien Event" (AE) since if aliens are encountered, the last era will be the most important in terms of contacting them.

to sum up, the scenario for a set of three succeeding eras currently on the table is

DW -> IE -> AE

if the development team buys into this, then we can start fleshing this three era scenarios out. however I am sure the other developers out there have other ideas about the number and nature of eras for the SotM mod.

my own preference is definitely for IE and AE. I cannot yet envision how a viable DW would work.
 
Okay, here's a proposal for a beginning of the tech tree:

We use most of the 'future' techs from the civ4 tech tree. Composites, Fiber Optics, Ecology (perhaps rename this one), Genetics and Robotics.
Genetics could be the starting point for Low-G Medicine, Ecology+Composites for Hydroponics (glasshouses), Robotics for Lunar Mining and so on...

This to simulate our Earthly origins, and the solutions we find on an inhospitable moon with this technology as a basis. :)
 
Super!

Of course that will bugger up my buildings and units XMLs, but that's okay. ;)
 
Admittedly, I've been concerned about the transition from having the tech to colonize the Moon to needing to be independent. It's a tough transition...
 
On an inhospitable body like the moon, independency is more related to politics and social settings then other things. A colony by definition needs to be self-sufficient over time when it grows too big.

Btw, I checked your new technologies xml and it buggered all the techlabels?
 
Oh wait, there's only a technologies.xml file in the download. So there should be another to let it work?

In other news, 20 techs and counting! :D
 
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