FE - Food Economy (Difference to SE & CE)

Well, the difference to CE is easy:

Don´t build cottages, farm everything (except early capital)...

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OK, the difference to SE is also easy:

Don´t run specialist (except GS farm)...

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But how exactly works and FE and where does the research come from?

To answer those questions, I have attached the next screen, where a typical FE city-screen is shown:

View attachment 151314


What do we see:

We have a size 9 city which has an output of about 50 beakers at 100% research at around 1000 AD.

When you have expanded well and FE is used properly, you will have about 10 -15 of those cities around that time, so your research will be at around 500+ beakers WITHOUT your science city AND your capital (that´s why a tech like assembly line takes only 12 turns to research that early)

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How can this be done?

To analyze this a little closer, we have another look at the city-screen above:

Buildings:

Theatre - first building, to expand city borders
Granary - to speed growth
Lighthouse - to speed growth
Harbour - to increase trade
Courthouse - to reduce costs

I usually build these buildings in this order. More buildings aren´t needed (if it´s a non costal city, you need a market)

Why this buildings:

We want to grow... ...not to be big, but to use the whip to get our buildings faster.

We will whip every single building a city can build, as long as we aren´t forced via emancipation to leave slavery. Economy buildings first, science next...

We only have to take care of the city remaining size 6+, to bring in enough trade via trade routes (+harbour and/or market)

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There we are

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TRADE-ROUTES

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I usually run herrule (NOT rep), nationalism, slavery, free market and free religion.

Now you only have to bribe one of the other AI´s early to switch to free market and your research will go crasy

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BEFORE reaching free market, I usually run bureau and let my capital do the research (I build 3-5 cottages & academy... ...this will do normally). Another city gets the national epic (and, if lucky, the Great Library) and under pacifism I try to get as many GS as possible.

Around the time when lightbulbing and capital-research start loosing their effects (normally when lib is in), the other cities take over and I switch to nationalism (cheap and baracks help keeping the cities happy)

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VERY IMPORTANT:

You must go heavy into politics to really be able to work this strat. Early warmongering and playing agressiv normally doesn´t go well with that, so you have to take care which neighbours you can attack (better to prepare every attack via diplo or missionaries)

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Back that strat up with one science city and 1 (or 2) production cities and you will get amazing results

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When everything important is build and all city tiles are worked (=most cities are fully grown), only then your cities will start hiring specialists. This is the time, when you can switch to rep.

um you can have traderoutes and still run stuff like specialists and cottages... it also require the AI to have open borders with you AND not run merkantilism which is not allways possible. In the given screenshot i dont see why you wouldnt whip in either a library or the market it is currently building to be able to run some specialists instead of those coast titles...

@ oyzar:

You can always combine any strat in civ4 (what is a good thing)

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I haven´t assigned specialist in the screen above, because I want to whip the market AND have a city AFTER the whip of 6+ (or trade-routes will break down completely because city is too small), so I have to grow the city to 10, only then I can whip (market = 4 pop)

Running any specialist will greatly slow growing, so I normaly don´t assign specialist unitill all buildings I want are whipped (to build infrastructure at max. speed). Only when and all workable tiles are worked I assign specialists (city size & infrastructure dederminates revenue of trade routes. That´s why you need at least a city size 6+ harbour and/or market to start foreing trade toutes coming in)

Before merk, trade revenue is to small to be important. When merk is discovered (and unsually used) priorize free market in your research and trade/give it away. Most civs cautious or better will adopt free market (after they have discovered astro for oversea trade) when you add it in a tech deal so converting them isn´t that difficult in most circumstances

Very impressive to be researching Assembly Line in 1150 AD. I am also a strong advocate of high food economies although I can't claim to do it as well as you have here

I note that most of your commerce in this city is from trade, four routes giving 9, 9, 8 and 8 = 34 commerce. That takes some doing in most games. And it is very hard to get enough good foreign routes for 10 cities (needs 40 routes) let alone 15 (needs 60). So how do you manage to stay friendly enough to have open borders with so many other civs? Free religion stops religion being a problem but it doesn't make them like you. You must be a diplomatic wizard

You have built a theatre for extra culture. I would usually build a library instead for slightly less culture (this city doesn't seem to need much culture anyway) and obviously another +25% research (= 11 beakers ) plus the ability to run 2 scientists (I understand the GPPs are probably worthless here) as a way to slow growth since you have so much food here (+12 food / turn gives 1 pop every 1 or 2 turns) and whipping unhappiness can grow too high. Even without Representation 3 beakers for 2 food is better than nothing.

Also it is interesting to note that a library gives a better return than a courthouse with the high commerce this city has now. I value +11 beakers more than saving 4.9 gold so I would build a library before a courthouse.

How are you planning to win this game? I note that you have Nationhood running and HR. Are you planning to draft either Rifles (before Assembly line is researched) or Infantry afterwards, or maybe a mixture. I note also that your market looks like it will give + 4 :happiness:. If you are planning to draft I presume you'll build a barracks , although that will not make much difference unless you run theocracy... I guess Infantry in 1250 AD don't really need promotions

Any chance of you posting the savegame? I'm interested in looking at other parts of the economy.

@ UncleJJ:

Some good points you have brought up here:

Using a lib & markets combo instead of theatre and courthouse may even be the better combo (I assume your numbers are right)

Concerning trade-route revenue:
When building enough infra in a big town, you will get trade routes up to around 15 each

Politics:
Look for your trading partners... ...when they start to fight each other for example bribe them to peace again ASAP when you can afford it (or you will get too many neg. modifiers because both will ask to join the war when you don´t stop it early)

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About this game:

It´s a deity game I´m just playing... ...goal is to win domintion... ...but I will probably fail, because I ended up on a conti with zulu, mongolia and england. The other conti has about the same size and there are india, mali and celts (yup, the good old techclub again). Thanks to an uber start, early techtrading, almost all wonders and several golden ages India has run off completely and has x techs on me...


Warfare:

I have already done 3 wars with cavalry & trebs (prebuild chariots and knights, fist war starting around 700 AD) which I have all won without too many problems (always bribe an ally to attack first, join in about 3-5 turns later)... ...next moves will be to take over my conti completely (about 55% of land).

I initally planned to only destroy england completely and to vassalize the others, but since India has run off that far, I reconsidered and will now try to take my conti completely (need all land)

Therefore one more war I plan to do with cav (shaka, he is extremely backwards). Last war I plan to do with cav/gren/rifles, because mongolia has rifles already (but only 5 cities left).

Globe will be finished soon and only then I will start to draft (no drafting except for emergency defence so far).

Basicly, my only hope now is, that I manage to get to artillery fast enough and manage to take enough off Brenus cities after my conti is clear to get to domination before Ashoka leaves for the stars...


Actual save
View attachment 151322

interesting game. I may have to give this strategy a shot some time. I've recently tried to gear my cities more towards trade based economies (prioritizing harbor etc.) but this really only works on the higher difficulties. Stronger AI = bigger cities = massive trade routes. I don't think this economy would be sustainable at a lower level (also has to do with the massive gold that you can rake in from the AI during tech trades on the higher levels too). It's sort of like how the pure SE doesn't work so well on the lower levels because your economy will run dry as the AI won't have hundreds of gold to give to you

I love the 175AD "You have discovered liberalism". I'm surprised you didn't take astronomy earlier to establish oversea trade routes - did you not have optics yet? And how have you not hit WFYABTA yet?

Snaaty said:

We only have to take care of the city remaining size 6+, to bring in enough trade via trade routes (+harbour and/or market)

Click to expand...

Question: How does a market help you? Especially in the screenshot you have here. A market gives you +25% . NOT commerce (which can be converted to science). Since you are getting no gold from this city (running 100% science), a market does nothing for you. A library would be a MUCh better build, sice it would give you +25% .

Also, you made no mention of the various wonders that increase trade routes. These would make an excellent addition to your article.

@ shyuhe:

concerning WFYABTA:

haven´t traded much... ...I normally don´t trade that much, because in early-game, not much trade is needed:

trades worth to take early-game (in order (more or less)):
iron working, math, currency, monarch, callendar, metal casting, compass

In this game, because I was stuck with the warmongers on my conti I think I even selfresearched callendar & compass (would have hit the magic lib around 1 AD, but somehow it never works off in the end...)

Better to spare most trades for mid-game (that´s where you normally start to fall behind):

trades worth taking in mid-game:
feudalism, guilds, machinery, banking, economics, replacable parts, rifling, constitution + what you can get before you run out of trading techs and hitting the WFYABTA

Key in keeping up with tech is beelining and trading (backfilling older techs)

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@ lib freebee:

hadn´t researched optics and didn´t dare to delay lib (Ghandi sailed over to me around 1 AD and already had education)... ...I didn´t trade for optics with Ghandi, because I didn´t know at that point the relations on the other conti... ...better delay trading with them, untill you know them all (worst enemy penalty...)

@ scottin:

There are several elements important to consider when talking about trade routes:

1. You have to enable foreign trade routes (via bringing other AI´s to adopt free market for example)

2. You have to make your cities attractive to actually GET foreign trade routes in... ...here you need harbours and/or markets (I don´t know why, but only after you build harbours in your costal cities and markets in inland cities, foreign trade routes will appear... ...perhaps these buildings make your cities attractive for other civs???)

3. What values do your trade-routes have:
This depends on city size and I think certain infrastructure buildings (bigger city and more infrastructure buildings = higher base trade-routes)

4. How is science calculated:
Money from trade routes gets summed up with money generated from the city (all buildings and bonusses are applied). The total is transformed into science when the slider is at 100% science, so a market bonus IS transformed into science

5. Wonders:
They help, but I rarely build any (on higher levels it´s almost impossible), so I have no numbers and experience concerning that. Feel free to add your experience and opinion concerning wonders

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Summary:
I build markets because they serve two purposes:

Making my city more attractive to actually GET a foreign trade route in AND increasing the revenue... ...a lib only increases the revenue in my experience.

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But some points brought up by UncleJJ are valid:

"You have built a theatre for extra culture. I would usually build a library instead for slightly less culture (this city doesn't seem to need much culture anyway) and obviously another +25% research (= 11 beakers ) plus the ability to run 2 scientists (I understand the GPPs are probably worthless here) as a way to slow growth since you have so much food here (+12 food / turn gives 1 pop every 1 or 2 turns) and whipping unhappiness can grow too high. Even without Representation 3 beakers for 2 food is better than nothing.

Also it is interesting to note that a library gives a better return than a courthouse with the high commerce this city has now. I value +11 beakers more than saving 4.9 gold so I would build a library before a courthouse."

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So it might be even better to build lib+market instead of theatre+courthouse (but timeline and construction costs have to be considered as well)

Snaaty said:

Summary:
I build markets because they serve two purposes:

Making my city more attractive to actually GET a foreign trade route in AND increasing the revenue... ...a lib only increases the revenue in my experience.

Click to expand...

If I'm not mistaken, markets don't affect trade routes directly. Researching Currency gives all your cities an additional trade route. Currency is also the tech that allows you to construct markets.

The +25% bonus that markets give do not (directly) affect research. The bonus is only applied to gold that goes into the treasury. If a city is generating 100 commerce and you're running science at 80% and culture at 0%, then the market will only give you 5 gold per turn (25% of 20). Since you're running science at 100%, that market won't give you any gold at all without something like a religious shrine or merchant specialists.

@ DigitalBoy:

You are right, I just checked... ...no bonus in research from markets

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To correct some misunderstandings:

Markest don´t increase the NUMBER of trade routes... ...what I meant is this:

Examplecity a with 4 traderoutes, all INTERNAL:
Revenue is like 1+1+1+1 = 4

Examplecity b with 4 traderoutes, all EXTERNAL:
Revenue is like 6+6+6+6 = 24

Markets help in actually GETTING foreign civs start a trade-route in a certain city... ...small cities with no markets and/or harbours will always be like Examplecity a, even when the whole world is running free market (I don´t know why this is so, I even don´t know if it is really true, but this is my experience and the reason I build markets (25% bonus isn´t much compared to getting foreing trade routes in)...)

harbors add +50% to the value of the trade route (the formula is a little more complicated than that) but I don't think markets affect trade route value. I think they only affect gold commerce after the slider% has been applied.

He's not saying that markets affect the value of the trade routes in the same way that harbors do. He is saying that if you have an inland city where you can't put a harbor then getting a market is the difference that gets you foreign trades routes, which are worth way more.

Markets do give +25% to any gold a city produces and that is one good reason to build them. But ...

In a food economy another important thing markets give is happiness. Incidently, I was wrong earlier to assume they would give Snaaty +4 it is only +3 right now ... until he gets the whale resource. And lo and behold, he has a whale inside his cultural borders near Dusseldorf. I recommend he builds a work boat there next and then the market. That will mean he gets +4 happiness from a market which will let him grow his important cities that much larger and work more tiles.

Welnic said:

He's not saying that markets affect the value of the trade routes in the same way that harbors do. He is saying that if you have an inland city where you can't put a harbor then getting a market is the difference that gets you foreign trades routes, which are worth way more.

Click to expand...

I don't understand how the market gets you foreign trade routes... Isn't the city going to have however many trade routes as your tech/civic combination allows? (assuming that you haven't exhausted the supply of available trade routes with cities).

@ Welnic:

Yes, this is exactly what I ment (but was quite obviously to dumb to describe)

BTW, just clicked your sig... ...feel free to take the save from some posts up in this thread and finish the game for me via domination please... ...I promise to pay you later

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@ UncleJJ:

I have a whale around somewhere???... ...must have completely overlooked/forgotten that... ...when I play on, I will try to remember to send a workboat there

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@ shyuhe:

No there is more to it... ...if you look at my save for example, you will see that my military city and my globe city both haven´t any foreign trade routes, although they are bigger then some other cities that do have... ...I don´t know any exact formula/numbers (=no idea why), but when you build a harbour/market, the trade routes of this city usually jump to external next couple of turns (5 or so...)

The overall number of trader routes stayes the same of course per city (4 internal trade routes change to 4 external trade routes for example, but the revenue may jump up from 4x1 to 4x6or7)

ioooo ok. I'm an idiot. Now I understand what you're saying. City A has no market and City B has a market - City B will produce more commerce out of the trade routes so the better routes will get assigned to B. Ok, makes sense now.

I had a look at the 1140 AD save you posted and have a lot of comments and questions.

You have a lot of techs on Shaka and Kublai and they are at war with each other and neither is popular with the other continent. So both are ripe fruit ready for picking. The question is how it should be done. Since you have a food economy the obvious solution seems to be based on Drafting, either rifles or infantry.

Research: After finishing Steam Power in 1150 you selected Assembly Line. I think that Biology might be a better choice unless you plan to trade with Mansa or Asoka for it somehow but giving them Assembly line could make things tougher for you. Biology just goes so well with a FE and is the ultimate productivity tech It should have been your priority after getting Scientific Method unless you had something very strange happening then.

Scientific Method, Monastries, Missionaries and Free Religion: It is unfortunate that you gained SM before building any monastries. I like to have at least one monastry for each religion in my empire. Introducing a religion into a city under FR gives +1 happiness and +1 culture, both of which can be good in a newly conquered city, saving the need to build theatres to expand the fat cross. The hammers for the missionary kick-start the new town come from another city and speed up its path to becoming useful. Anyway it is too late now so let's move on

Drafting: You are running Nationhood and that is a good civic just for the +2 happiness in war ... but only 8 out of 21 cities have barracks Why are you running this civic and not making good use of it in cities that have been owned a long time ? I approve of Globe Theatre as a drafting engine, although it is much more powerful drafting rifles rather than infantry, since it takes 2 turns at least to regrow the pop for infantry while rifles can be pumped out every turn if the food supply is high enough. This is another reason to research Biology before Assembly Line... pump out a few cheap rifles before infantry are the draftees.

But to amass a big army fast you could use other cities to draft some troops if the happiness is high enough. You have markets (which with the whale near Dusseldorf give +4 happiness), and barracks to give good happiness for several drafts per city. And you can draft a rifleman once every 10 turns anyway. Then there is the culture slider which you can use to squeeze a few more out. Each 10% culture costs 45 gold at present so that should be the last option if possible.

London has an impressive haul of wonders, Hanging Gardens, Angkor Wat and Uni of Sangkore. How are you planning to use those? Fredrick is philosophical and the next GP only costs 900 GPPs. I guess London could make at least 1 GP if some specialists were worked.

shyuhe said:

ioooo ok. I'm an idiot. Now I understand what you're saying. City A has no market and City B has a market - City B will produce more commerce out of the trade routes so the better routes will get assigned to B. Ok, makes sense now.

Click to expand...

Not to me, it doesn't.

From what I can tell, when the trade routes are calculated ( CvPlayer::updateTradeRoutes ), your cities are ordered based on which have the best trade route multipliers (based on population, buildings, and connection to your own capital - CvCity::totalTradeModifier ), then each of those cities are assigned the most profitable trade routes available (CvCity::updateTradeRoutes)

Trade route multipliers are determined by the presence of buildings which have interesting iTradeRouteModifier values in CIV4BuildingInfos.xml

But a market isn't one of those buildings - so it shouldn't make any difference. There's nothing I see in the code that suggests that the city's efficience in translating commerce to something useful plays any role at all in determining trade routes.

Maybe somebody will put together an experiment to demonstrate otherwise.

What the...? I have to try this one myself, I can't believe you're researching Assembly Line in 1150AD. Way to go!