Understanding War Weariness

Hey all...

I had always assumed that War Weariness was a simple function of how long you had been at war. So for the first time, Basium spawns on another continent and declares war on me (Veil), but neither he nor the Elohim (his ally) seem to have any intention of actually fighting. War doesn't rage, but goes on for a loooong time. My people couldn't care less. Finally, Elohim approaches me and tells me the war is tearing the heart out of his people, sues for peace. I say sure, next time I bump into him he declares war on me again.

What helps this make sense? (I know about Basium's eternal beef with the Veil, I'm wondering about the lack of caring on the part of my people.)

xAlephx said:

Hey all...

I had always assumed that War Weariness was a simple function of how long you had been at war. So for the first time, Basium spawns on another continent and declares war on me (Veil), but neither he nor the Elohim (his ally) seem to have any intention of actually fighting. War doesn't rage, but goes on for a loooong time. My people couldn't care less. Finally, Elohim approaches me and tells me the war is tearing the heart out of his people, sues for peace. I say sure, next time I bump into him he declares war on me again.

What helps this make sense? (I know about Basium's eternal beef with the Veil, I'm wondering about the lack of caring on the part of my people.)

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War weariness is effected by how many units you have that are killed in combat (spells and summons dont count). Your people will tolerate a war forever if no one is dying.

Actually, unless FFH changed something in the WW code you can fight as much as you want in your own territory without getting WW. However, fighting in enemy territory increases WW when units on either side are killed, and when you capture cities.

...However, fighting in enemy territory increases WW when units on either side are killed, and when you capture cities.

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Do you mean my ppl are upset when I conquer an enemy city?
If it is the case then is it also for evil civ? I just can't imagine why my Sheiam ppl would fell sorry that I capture or raze enemy cities. Maybe Elohim when fighting a good civ but the evil ones no way!

all evil civs start with big boni vs WW (in their Palace). If I remember well the Infernal even has -100%

I don't think that is true for all, or even most, evil civs. Also, I believe that the Mercurian bonus against WW is even greater (both the Mercurian Gate and their Palace give large boni. Does ~-140% WW make your citizens happier when at war?)

MagisterCultuum said:

I don't think that is true for all, or even most, evil civs. Also, I believe that the Mercurian bonus against WW is even greater (both the Mercurian Gate and their Palace give large boni. Does ~-140% WW make your citizens happier when at war?)

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The Mercurian Palace is -50% WW. The Gate is 100% where it's built and -20% WW in other cities. So the bonus in the capital is -150% but in other cities it's only -70%.

speaking of war weariness, i always wondered why hippus didn't have some kind of specialized mechanic(although it looks like they may be headed that way,i've yet to see anything really specific), something like having their war weariness decreased by any gold they make from pillaging, they are after all mercenaries, risking their lives for profit, if they get it, what should they care? Then perhaps allowing them to get war weariness when defending themselves, since there really isn't any money in it.

i think that that is a good idea- prehaps there coudl be seperate systems to give war weariness for each civilization for example:

blaspherphs getless war weariness if you are putting slaves in a freak show
infernals get war happiness if the war is raising the arageddon counter
mercians get less war weariness if they are killing demons, more war weariness if angels are dieing and they get no penalty if living units they own die

elohim get more war weariness if they are waging war outside their borders and none if its within

calabim get more war weariness if the city population is eaten while at war

bannor get no war weariness while on a crusade

Seont said:

speaking of war weariness, i always wondered why hippus didn't have some kind of specialized mechanic(although it looks like they may be headed that way,i've yet to see anything really specific), something like having their war weariness decreased by any gold they make from pillaging, they are after all mercenaries, risking their lives for profit, if they get it, what should they care? Then perhaps allowing them to get war weariness when defending themselves, since there really isn't any money in it.

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Mercenary doesn't necessarily mean reckless pillaging barbarian IMO. Not all mercenaries would pillage and loot cities. It depends on the leader traits, this would be more suited to Tasunke than Rhoanna for example.

onedreamer said:

Mercenary doesn't necessarily mean reckless pillaging barbarian IMO. Not all mercenaries would pillage and loot cities. It depends on the leader traits, this would be more suited to Tasunke than Rhoanna for example.

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Perhaps, But Mercenaries are in it for the money, the more the better. and i would say this was more a reflection of the population than the leader. Tasunke's raider trait would definetlyy have an influence though. also i should say, even mercs want peace from now and then, if only to spend their loot, so i don't think it should ever be enough to stop war weariness completely, just slow it down.

I don't think that would make them "reckless pillaging barbarian" , especially if they planned on keeping any of those cities they conquered, just better able to endure a prolonged war or series of wars, so long as they were sufficiently paid. (the 2 gold, and other rediculous sums one gets from looting, can only, in my oppinion, be justified by assuming the army made off with the bulk of the fortune)

What I was trying to say is that Mercenaries don't necessarily make money through pillaging. They are paid to conquer/defeat, or better simply fight, a third party enemy, normally. They may or may not decide to pillage for additional loot, and this I think is pertient to the leader traits, or their orgainzation. Btw, try looting a town or village with the raider trait. You'll see numbers quite different from 2 gold

uberfish said:

Actually, unless FFH changed something in the WW code you can fight as much as you want in your own territory without getting WW. However, fighting in enemy territory increases WW when units on either side are killed, and when you capture cities.

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are you sure that having declared war or vice versa doesn't fit into the equation ?

onedreamer said:

are you sure that having declared war or vice versa doesn't fit into the equation ?

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It doesn't, uberfish was right. In vanilla you get war weariness if your unit is defeated in combat and:

1. Its not in your lands.

In FfH 0.21 and older you get war weariness if your unit is defeated in combat and:

1. Its not in your lands.
2. and its not a spell/summon.

In FfH 0.22 you get war weariness if your unit is defeated in combat and:

1. Its not in your lands.
2. and its not a spell/summon.
3. and its not hidden nationality.

Also as I was going through the code today I noticed that with the way it was blocked a spell/summon wouldn't cause war weariness if it killed an enamey unit. Im putting that back in.

did you mean a unit that dies in combat with a summoned unit doesn't cause WW in 0.21 ? (I know it would be the same, but just to make more clear)
This thing of declaring war or not might be from Civ3 then. Interesting to know, thanks !

onedreamer said:

did you mean a unit that dies in combat with a summoned unit doesn't cause WW in 0.21 ? (I know it would be the same, but just to make more clear)
This thing of declaring war or not might be from Civ3 then. Interesting to know, thanks !

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No, a summoned unit dying doesnt cause war weariness (what do your people care if an air elemental or fireball loses in combat).

yeah, they are cannon fodder ^^

onedreamer said:

What I was trying to say is that Mercenaries don't necessarily make money through pillaging. They are paid to conquer/defeat, or better simply fight, a third party enemy, normally. They may or may not decide to pillage for additional loot, and this I think is pertient to the leader traits, or their orgainzation.

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personally, it seems to me we have a big enough problem with professional, national soldiers looting and pillaging when, hopefully, they believe in the cause they are fighting for and are under some measure of supervision, much less someone who believes only in the paycheck they are recieving, and is only loosely controlled. while there have been rare examples to the contrary, i just don't put alot of faith in the high moral fiber of mercenaries.

when i can say to a man, "here's 10 bucks, go try and kill that guy for me", i just expect he'll loot the wallet if he thinks its fat enough to be worth the effort, and can get away with it. if he is in it for the money, i can guess where his priorities lay.
But i see what you are saying, this is just my oppinion.

On a side note though, its more a mechanic meant to hopefully make true mercenary-ism possible for the hippus, hiring themselves out to others to fight wars. Ofcourse you still have the problem that they would eventually become attached to one side, what with all the negative diplomatic modifiers they'd get stuck with, noone else would likely hire them but the person whose been hiring them all along...so its moot.

onedreamer said:

Btw, try looting a town or village with the raider trait. You'll see numbers quite different from 2 gold

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while i have looted towns and villages, never with the raider trait, but still what i got from looting without the trait seemed somehow palrty when compared to what the tile was meant to represent, just a personal oppinion.