Should any UPs be changed?

I was just thinking that the French UP (Entente) was maybe not the most accurate one, as France has had its fair share of wars and diplomatic tensions throughout history. Besides, "Entente cordiale" refers to a British tolerance of a weakened France at the beginning of the 20th century and a necessary obligation for that weakened France to accept their historical enemy (Britain) as a non enemy in front of German growing threat. But it was a non aggression pact rather that a formal alliance. So this to me is a relatively short period of French history.

On the other hand, what could be considered as a long characteristic of France, is its strong centralism. Since Louis XIV, Paris or Versailles (which is the same) has completely overpowered the rest of France. And even today, I can't think of any other country in Europe of that size in which there is such unbalance between the capital city and the other cities (political and administrative centralization, national museums, state sponsored big constructions and buildings, population: 10 millions in Paris vs 1 million in Lyon and Marseille, and above all, massive diminution of regional cultures)

Therefore, I think that rather than a diplomatic bonus (which is very powerful indeed), France should be given a bonus to its capital city of some sort. Maybe a cultural bonus or a GP bonus. Maybe when switching to bureaucracy,
like 75% extra production and gold instead of 50%. Or maybe extra food to the capital to make it bigger than other cities.

Does it make sense?
Let me know your views.

French are very liked by Americans, English, Germans, Russians and other major powers, aren't they?

I hate them...

I like this power, maybe a always Capital 25% Production and Commerce...

You can't say that France was frindly in its history because of the 100years war, napoleon, etc. Maybe now France has a lot of friends, but just because it isn't THE military power that it was in the past...

@Riker: Io sono francese! @%?$!

I like the current UP. It reflects the attraction power of France's culture.
Also, diplomacy as an art is very much influenced by France - until WW2, French was THE language of foreign affairs, you couldn't get away with not learning it if you (like moi, hehe) hung out in international circles...

On the other hand, your point on centralization is very relevant, you're 100% right on that one...

Considering that they did whip down a lot of Europeans during Napoleon's time, don't you thin that Entente is reasonable? I mean, in just around 200 years they're "Friendly" once more with everyone else.

@Riker: Io sono francese! @%?$

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I hate you too then XD

Oh, Ukraine ( England ) UP need to be changed, it is just to lame! you can't win a similiar ship in a cost ( just 40% chance of winning ).

I would prefer a better UP in relation to Naval Warfare or another one, maybe "Imperialism"... maintenance -25%...

flyingchicken said:

Considering that they did whip down a lot of Europeans during Napoleon's time, don't you thin that Entente is reasonable? I mean, in just around 200 years they're "Friendly" once more with everyone else.

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So is Germany. I don't think that is proper to France.

@sdLeo
Indeed, French was the diplomatic language, but does it really mean France benefited from it? After all, 2 world wars happened during that time, and France was in the middle of that diplomatic mess.

@Edungeon
I agree that England UP need to be beefed up, and it's got to be another naval bonus.

@Riker
I'm French and I've lived abroad for 7 years, so I'm well aware the French are generally not well liked, and I know the reasons why they aren't, believe me. No need to elaborate on that. But seriously what do you think about the UP?

@Riker
I'm French and I've lived abroad for 7 years, so I'm well aware the French are generally not well liked, and I know the reasons why they aren't, believe me. No need to elaborate on that. But seriously what do you think about the UP?

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I don't like the Up. But it's not an issue for me: if I'm playing an European civ, France will be conquered regardless, the land is very nice and rich. If I'm not in Europe, it's too far to bother me...

dionysos2048 said:

@sdLeo
Indeed, French was the diplomatic language, but does it really mean France benefited from it? After all, 2 world wars happened during that time, and France was in the middle of that diplomatic mess.

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Ok, but the history of diplomacy - in its present meaning, a word coined by the French btw - goes back to the 1700s, not just between WW1 and 2!

dionysos2048 said:

@Riker
I'm French and I've lived abroad for 7 years, so I'm well aware the French are generally not well liked, and I know the reasons why they aren't, believe me. No need to elaborate on that. But seriously what do you think about the UP?

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Funny, although I know that Brits and Americans have a love-hate relationship with the French, in my travels around the world, I got the impression that people loved France (though not necessarily some specimens of the French nation)!

I think people love France i.e. Paris.

Or maybe it's the French fry. Who knows?

Maybe a new power should reflect the Divine Right of Kings?

Divine Right has been used as an excuse for power even as far as Japan.

People like the France but hate the French, I think, and it's not the French fries., because they are a Belgian invention. The English got to know them in France, who learned it in Belgium.

About the UP. Paris and the Ille de France (area around Paris) was organised so that Paris could grow in a big city. Like Riker said, the land around Paris is very rich, and that symbolises the strenght of the centralised nation a bit, but I aslo think giving the capital the bonus of 25% in gold and production would be nice, and a better UP (at least a more vissible one) than the current UP.

SadoMacho said:

People like the France but hate the French, I think, and it's not the French fries., because they are a Belgian invention. The English got to know them in France, who learned it in Belgium.

About the UP. Paris and the Ille de France (area around Paris) was organised so that Paris could grow in a big city. Like Riker said, the land around Paris is very rich, and that symbolises the strenght of the centralised nation a bit, but I aslo think giving the capital the bonus of 25% in gold and production would be nice, and a better UP (at least a more vissible one) than the current UP.

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Absolutely right on French fries. The French do know Belgians are the kings of chips and mussels!
Also in my experience, people like the country of France (if not it wouldn't be the most visited country in the world), they just think it's too bad the French spoil the fun...
To come back to the topic, on the current UP, I think it is VERY powerful as it is now, especially when requesting cities at world congresses. It also makes diplomatic victory quite easy. I think a bonus like bureaucracy also giving an extra 25% culture and 25% food would be less powerful but more accurate.

I was going off the wiki article, and more on the Christendom theme than a more general 'might=right' in the hands of a monarch. I think it's appropriate for France after reading the article, especially if one takes Louis XIV's reign as one of the golden ages of France.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Right_of_Kings
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_XIV_of_France

I think it fits well since the Sun King is pretty well represented in CIV all ready with the Divine Right Quote and Versailles wonder.

flyingchicken said:

Divine Right has been used as an excuse for power even as far as Japan.

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Centralization is already represented by Bureaucracy. It's a choice between that or Vassalage, which is makes sense: have the nobles scattered across your kingdom (decentralized power) or have them meet regularly to discuss stately matters (centralized).

So, in Civ terms Louis XIV was just running on Bureaucracy while his contemporaries were still struggling with Vassalage.

Anyway, the diplomatic twist is what makes playing France fun; land-grabbing and world wars are, anyway. Will you compromise this unique power, this fun gameplay aspect, for something as bland as an increase in percentages?

Louis XIV build Versaille to get all his nobles around him, and away from there estates so that he could get the absolute power. The nobles in Versaille had other worries then running there estate in the golden cage in Paris.

Also with the arrivial of gunpowder, knights became obselete and also the vassalage-system, because nobles got there estates so they could afford armor and horses. So the power of centalization in France has nothing to do with a strong bureaucracy.

The centralization of France started out with Hugo Capet becoming the King of France. All kings of France until Louis XVIII (1815-1830) were Capets. They all used the privilages of the king and the strenght of the Ille de France (with Paris as the centre) to reduce the power of there vassals.

In modern days France, Gaullism (->Charles De Gaulle) is still important, and this wants a strong central state with a strong President.

Also the Language is important in France. The Langue d'Oc, language of Ille de France, is the most important language. The Langue d'Oïl (South France)has only a minor importance in teh French language. Other non-French languages spoken in France (Baskian, German (Elzas) and Dutch(Flemmish)) have been kept as small as possible and are not thought in shools and are not official languages. This is the 1 language = 1 nation idea, to get a centralized state without possible rebels.

(Rhye, maybe a stability addition : Vassalage gets a small negative value with gunpowder?)

SadoMacho said:

(Rhye, maybe a stability addition : Vassalage gets a small negative value with gunpowder?)

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there's already a modifier (per era)