El-J 01 ~ Full Metal Jacket

El Justo

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ahh - my first ever hosted SG :)

and as the title suggests, it is a succession game based on the Vietnam War.

now, the files are being uploaded as i type this. so they should be available in the next day or so.

we actually have a few who've confirmed already for this one:

me
Whomp
Tank_Guy#3
cubsfan6506
soul warrior
wolf_66
Bede
AlCosta
ThERat
dferrill


i'm under the impression that most SGs are played w/ a roster of up to six players. however, if there is interest above what i anticipate, i'd be happy to go over the 6 player limit or even morph it into a democracy type game where we turn it into an MP game w/ two teams full of human players. either way is fine by me. so until the url is ready from 3D Downloads, i figure we can gauge interest and make a decision before starting.

scenario specs
2 playable civs - N Vietnam and S Vietnam
419 total turns
each turn equals a week in real time
all US foot units are autoproduced
victory conditions: VP win (no culture, domination, conquest etc - just straight VPs)
no culture flips (although i had wanted them but the game engine specs for flipping runs counter to the gameplay i'm afraid)
customized sound track :cool:
civ-specific everything from units, to buildings and wonders, down to the tech trees (yes! 2 seperate tech trees!)
a massive Civilopedia file complete w/ a game concepts section that explains just about every unique aspect of the scenario (by far the most comprehensive CivP file i've ever compiled)

difficulty level
i'd characterize this as a mid-level micromanagement game w/ a specific emphasis on war/combat strategy. there's even a certain level of tactical elements involved, especially for humans. the SV position is probably more intensive due to the prosecution of the air war. the NV side is less so imo b/c of the absence of a sustained air war. this could also qualify as a 'training game' in that i could personally tutor anyone in the nuances of managing the uber-corrupt SV cities, prosecuting the air war, and conducting the search-and-destroy missions in an effort to squash the communist insurgency :) i've had a great deal of experience in counter-insurgency operations as you can see :D

scenario development note
the war in viet nam was a specialty of mine while at uni and i spent about the equivelent of 2 full semsters studying the military, political, and social impacts of the war from the US point of view, the South Vietnamese, the communists, and even chinese and russian among others. so over the last several years, i'd been chipping away at these files (especially over the last 6 months or so). anyhow, i'd always wanted to transfer this desire of mine into a civ3 scenario and here it finally is :cooool:

so, who's up for it?
 
Yeah, come on all of you, big strong men,
Uncle Sam needs your help again.
He's got himself in a terrible jam
Way down yonder in Vietnam
So put down your books and pick up a gun,
We're gonna have a whole lotta fun.

And it's one, two, three,
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
Next stop is Vietnam;
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why,
Whoopee! we're all gonna die.

Well, come on generals, let's move fast;
Your big chance has come at last.
Gotta go out and get those reds —
The only good commie is the one who's dead
And you know that peace can only be won
When we've blown 'em all to kingdom come.

And it's one, two, three,
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
Next stop is Vietnam;
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why
Whoopee! we're all gonna die.

Huh!

Well, come on Wall Street, don't move slow,
Why man, this is war au-go-go.
There's plenty good money to be made
By supplying the Army with the tools of the trade,
Just hope and pray that if they drop the bomb,
They drop it on the Viet Cong.

And it's one, two, three,
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
Next stop is Vietnam.
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why
Whoopee! we're all gonna die.

Well, come on mothers throughout the land,
Pack your boys off to Vietnam.
Come on fathers, don't hesitate,
Send 'em off before it's too late.
Be the first one on your block
To have your boy come home in a box.

And it's one, two, three
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
Next stop is Vietnam.
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why,
Whoopee! we're all gonna die.

Gimme an F!

F!
Gimme an I!

I!
Gimme an S!

S!
Gimme an H!

H!
What's that spell ?

FISH!
What's that spell ?

FISH!
What's that spell ?

FISH!

I gotta get in on this one! Pulheez!
 
Sweet Brother B in da house! :salute: El J you will undoubtedly appreciate Bede's turnlogs. One of the finest writers on these boards.
 
M I C
K E Y
M O U S E
Mickey Mouse, Mickey Mouse !

lurker's comment: Will lurk :D Good scenario idea :thumbsup:
 
Good morning Vietnam!
Hey, this is not a test, this is rock and roll, time to rock it from the Delta to the DMZ! Is it just me, or does that sound like an Elvis Presley movie?

(That means I want in if possible. ;))
 
nice :lol: nice :lol: fantastic post Bede! :thumbsup:

as i did w/ the Age of Imperialism SG, i'll post some tips and key strategies in the beginning here so thta we can all get familiar a little faster :D

i have three total files for this one - so we should probably all weigh in and see which one best fits for us and this SG :cool:

1 is for play as the South Vietnamese player and is perhaps the most polished of the three. it's set as SV only b/c there was some AI dummy-proofing i needed to do to ensure proper game play and balance. rates of autoproduction for certain units, pre-placed wonders and buildings, and pre-placed cities for the VC are among the subtle changes for this SV biq.

a second is for NV and has similar tweaks as noted above but it is done manily to enhance the SV AI. this biq however doesn't have the extra pre-placed VC 'Base Areas' (ie cities for the viet cong along the Ho Chi Minh Trail). instead, there's a wonder which can be built along the Trail which autopro's 'Viet Cong Settler' units every 24 turns.

a final version is set to 'free up' the rules some b/c there's no AI to worry about - iow, an MP biq for either PBEM, hotseat, and for a democracy type game assuming enough folks join up or the roster is split into two

resources play a key role in this scenario. as the NV position, it is imperative that when building cities (ie the 'Base Areas'), they must be built within the radius of the 'Ho Chi Minh Trail' resource (pictured below and circled in red on the map).
vietnamsg15mayig2.jpg

the advantage of plopping down your settler units near this resource is that it enables the whole host of viet cong buildings which generate the food, commerce, and units needed to support the local insurgency :) note that all of the viet cong military units are autopro'd by these building and w/out them, these cities would essentially be far-flung outposts in the jungle of indochina :)

NV also has it own set of buildings above the DMZ in territorial North Vietnam. there are 2 sets of city buildings here - an urban set (roughly a dozen of the largest cities of NV) and a rural set (all the others). all of the bonuses and benefits of the standard C3C buildings pretty much apply here like food bonuses, +shields, +commerce, +happiness, etc etc. the CivP file will answer alot of questions as well.

SV otoh has 2 sets of resources - a rural one (South Vietnam) and an urban one (USA). the same applies here w/ the standard building bonuses/enhancements. however, the SV position is pretty much riddled w/ corruption. this is an intentional aspect of the mod. so a certain amount of MM'ing applies here as well as the corruption reducing (and WW reducing) imp's.

next i'll get to some of the military strategy :scan:

ADDIT: i got you both in Bede and Al :D
 
El J another thought is if we can get 10-12 people we could have Team A and B. We can then compare notes after the game to see how each team played it. I think a pbem may take time and I'm not sure we'd keep interest high enough.
 
El J another thought is if we can get 10-12 people we could have Team A and B. We can then compare notes after the game to see how each team played it. I think a pbem may take time and I'm not sure we'd keep interest high enough.

If you look at the W.I.P. thread in C&C, that's a thing El J proposes. ;) I like that idea better than standard SG (although both are good), let's try to get enough people for that.

BTW, I heard the kid that did the music stuff in this scenario is pretty cool. :p Which reminds me of something El J, I've got a whole bucket-load of Vietnam-era songs if you think you need any more. ;)
 
El J another thought is if we can get 10-12 people we could have Team A and B. We can then compare notes after the game to see how each team played it. I think a pbem may take time and I'm not sure we'd keep interest high enough.
yeah, i like that idea :)

AlCosta said:
BTW, I heard the kid that did the music stuff in this scenario is pretty cool. Which reminds me of something El J, I've got a whole bucket-load of Vietnam-era songs if you think you need any more.
:goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob:

it sounds so kewl, too, especially the first few times you hear it.
 
wow, this is looking great and fun lurking

customized sound track
so the game will start with Doors 'the end'? That alone would be worth playing :lol:
 
wow, this is looking great and fun lurking

so the game will start with Doors 'the end'? That alone would be worth playing :lol:

The End is in the soundtrack, but it's not first. The first track is great though.
 
I will join.
 
wow, this is looking great and fun lurking

so the game will start with Doors 'the end'? That alone would be worth playing :lol:
fittingly enough, it is the last song in the que :D
 
you're already in cubbie :)

general military strategy/tactics

almost all infantry/foot units are represented at company level unless otherwise stated. so this means that, roughly speaking, each infantry unit equals approximately 150-200 men. all autorproduction rates (especially the US ones) were determined using this calculation against the total turns for the scenario in connection with actual real-life/historical deployments.

South Vietnam
the name of the game for this position is to rid the south of the Viet Cong and take over the various VP locales located all over SV. there's a catch though - all of the Viet Cong units have the 'invisible' flag. these are the units that are spawned from the Ho Chi Minh Trail city imp's. this network stretches north of the DMZ in central Laos and winds its way all the way south of Saigon. the regular PAVN/NVA (Provisional Army Viet Nam/N Vietnamese Army) units can be built in any locale so long as the 'North Vietnam' resource flows into it via a road net (it's the 'rural' resource up north). these units though are not invisible. so how to defend against the invisible enemies? special forces units of course :) these elite units have the 'detect invisible' flag and are spawned every ten turns by three different pre-placed wonders (US Green Beret, US Ranger LRRP, ARVN Ranger -- LRRP stands for Long Range Recon Patrol). so the key is to scatter these units (there's a half dozen pre-placed) across the Republic so that they can actually 'see' the VC units at which point you can call in your air strikes - this is important - b/c without spotting the VC units, the air units can't conduct a successful bombardment mission. most of the ARVN units (Army of the Republic of Viet Nam) can be built (ARVN Marines & Paratroopers are spawned). all tanks are spawned and unbuildable (the wet weather in indochina was not conducive to tanks outside of defensive roles).

the prosectuion of the air war as this position demands some MM'ing if you wish to succeed. you start out w/ 2 large carrier battle groups (CBG) parked out in the Gulf of Tonkin and the South China Sea. in sum, there are 10 carriers w/ a transport capacity of 5-6 planes which basically equal a naval aircraft squadron for each in-game unit (they're all named to the historical order of battle too as are all of the ships). each naval air unit has unique and distinct abilities and bonuses too (air-to-ground attack, fighter-bomber, reconnaissance). these aircraft are also the only ones able to load onto the carriers which are all immobile btw. but the ranges of the aircraft all allow for them to hit nearly anywhere in north or south vietnam and westwards. none of the naval aircraft are buildbale and are instead autopro'd by certain sm wonders (they act simjply as 'replenishers' for any lost or damaged naval aircraft - you're bound to lose some you know ;))

the land-based aircrafts have similar attributes and bonuses plus the biggie: the heavy bomber bonus - ie, the B-52 Stratofortress. these beasts are the most devastating conventional bombers ever to fly and they have tremendous in-game stats (100 bombardment and 6 RoF + lethal land). of course, they're autoproduced by the pre-placed 'Operation Arc Light' wonder every 12 turns. land-based air-to-ground planes, fighter-bombers (f/b's), helos, gunships, and transport planes round out the lineup of air units.

note that the high-end f/b's are only able to be built in the 5 Thai 'Airbase' cities shown circled in red.
vietnamsg15may2007dc1.jpg
this is a sealed off part of the map where Charlie and company can't get to b/c some adjusting w/ tile restrictions in the editor. so for all intents and purposes, this area is a safe haven to conduct air wars from.

however, a great deal of caution needs to be used when attacking fixed enemy locations like cities and advanced earthworks as there is often enemy anti-aircraft emplacements and i've lost several planes during testing due to this. the NV position has a whole unit line dedicated to anti-aircraft weapons (flak and SAMs). and i finally found a way for the AI to build the AA pieces. so beware if you want to take your precious B52 fleet over Hanoi. send in your f/b's in droves until you know that the coast is clear. i'll go into greater detail later on the both sides of the air war as this was by far the most intensive aspect of the war (more US bombes were dropped on South Vietnam than all of Europe combined during WW2 :eek:). so if you're an aircraft enthusiast, this one's for you :cooool:

air transport is key for the SV position, especially w/ the helos. just as they were effective all over S Vietnam during the war, they're just as important for the SV player for battle field/LZ insertions in many of the inaccessible and rugged terrains along the HCMT. the venerable UH-1 Huey "Slick" can carry 2 infantry units and will quickly become your best friend :) the heavy duty C-130 Hecules transport planes are also handy in that they can schlepp the heavy arty pieces and the light armored units (M113 & M551). the air transport net also is good when there are not enought special force units (ie detect invisible) to patrol certain areas or road/highway junctions. the helos and c-130's can bypass the land route and resupply quickly and painlessly.

my basic strategies when playing this position in testing consisted primarily of counter-insurgency operations in the southern parts of the HCMT and along the borders in the Central Highlands of SV. search-and-destroy type operations for the most part. i'd send in a few US infantry companies usually w/ a special forces unit so i could 'see' who i was fighting against and also to call in air strikes. i made decent gains doing this but Charlie never rests. by that i mean that he's always trying to penetrate through the Highlands and to reinforce some of the VC-occupied VP tiles scattered throughout SV. know that Charlie is awfully sneaky moving around - and it can get hairy if no special forces units are around. the air strikes are what will save your ass really. so use the special forces units judiciously and you'll at least be able to stem the tide.

i'll post more on NV later :D
 
Which version (Civ3, PTW, C3C) is this scenario played on? ;)
 
more US bombs were dropped on South Vietnam than all of Europe combined during WW2
surprisingly, Laos and parts of Cambodia suffered a lot due to carpet bombing as well...not very pretty..and the carpet bombing in Cambodia strengthened the local support for the guerilla, the infamous Khmer Rouge...another example how things can go awfully wrong


ps. sorry for threadjacking...
 
Which version (Civ3, PTW, C3C) is this scenario played on? ;)
Conquests :)

ThERat,
yes, and that is just the bombs that fell in the south. USAF and USN planes bombed the poop out of the north as well. so much so that it was determined that there was at one point no other viable targets to hit anymore (supply dumps, p-o-l centers, railheads, bridges, etc).
 
Good luck with this El Justo. I shall follow this with great interest.
 
general military strategy/tactics

North Vietnam
this position is clearly less of an MM civ than its counterpart. there are no carriers, large fleets of air units, or bombardment missions to undertake. so compared to SV, it is less in terms of conducting war.

NVA/PAVN units can be built anywhere so long as the resource (North Vietnam) is able to link up to all cities. of course, your production/shield rates are far higher up north compared to the 'Base Areas' along the HCMT. so NVA Infantry companies and the support units are built primarily in NV.

the Viet Cong units, as noted in the OP, are spawned by one of the specialized city imp's along the HCMT. iirc, a Viet Cong Rifle Co. is autopro'd every 4 turns. there are other VC units as well like the Signal Engineer (ie worker), rocket/mortar units, and sapper units (the commie special force units). now, i haven't played extensively w/ this position so i can only go on limited play reports here. but i recall stacking up my VC units and zeroing in on the weak spots in the SV position (usually in the central part where it's more isolated). the important thing though is to be very, very careful not to add any NVA regular troops to your VC stacks b/c that will tip off the enemy (ie the NVA units are not invisible). so the bottom line is to be careful where you send the NVA units and the armor units b/c they can be detected and will be bombed to oblivion (i had that happen to me on a few occassions).

the NVA does have a decent set of armored units. but they are all autopro'd up north. the T-34, T-54, T-55 and a bunch of Chinese knock-offs round out the lot. a good rule of thumb is to have some flak pieces tag along for the trip down south b/c these units are not invisible either.

the NV file differs the most from the other biq files in that the human player must develop the Viet Cong network along the HCMT w/ the settler units. it's imperative that cities are built w/in the radius of the HCMT resource or else none of the specialized buildings can be built. there are also some HCMT resources located on the fringes in SV also. but be careful and always bring enough units to garrison any new 'Base Area' you build b/c i've had Uncle Sam roll over me and raze the new city the very next turn b/c i didn't bring enough defenders.

reinforcement of the scattered VP locations in SV is a priority as well.

be very careful along the coastlines of SV b/c there are a few USN cruisers out there w/ their big guns and lethal land flags. they're very active, too, if you're spotted.

the air war for the NV position is two-fold: anti-aircraft arty and SAM batteries make up the bulk of your defense. however, MiGs are spawened by appropriate buildings (one every eight turns iirc). there's MiG-15s, -17s, -19s, and the infamous -21s. one bomber unit is available via autoproduction to NV albeit in very small numbers (the Ilyushin-28 Beagle medium bomber). the MiGs are there for interception and combat air patrol although they are seriously outgunned against their American enemies (most of them at least - the f/b's in particular). so heavy AAA defenses are a must.

some time ago, when revising my Cold War scenario, we discovered that the original stats for the C3C flak unit was way off. by that i mean that it almost never shot down any enemy aircraft despite its anti-air rating. so we found out after a slew of tests that the anti-air stat was indeed very much undervalued. so we adjusted these stats accordingly and the air war in TCW was much better b/c of it and this has been carried over into the Vietnam mod. so what i'm getting at is that you'll see a far higher attrition rate in this scenario than what you're used to. now, it's not a gamebreaker by any stretch. instead, it's more realistic to have, say, a 20% chance for one of the air-to-ground attack planes like an A-1 Skyraider to be shot down by flak. but the high altitude f/b's and b-52s are less likely to be shot down (and high defense stats which calculates into the AA kill algorithm for the civ3 engine). however, those high altitude aircraft are certainly still susceptable to the AAA, just not as much as the lower stat air-to-ground planes. later today perhaps i will get more into the air war aspects of the mod b/c they play a key role.
 
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