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Amurite Tips

xAlephx

Jack of Clubs
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
189
So, in my never ending quest to play FFH2 until my eyeballs actually explode, I've started fooling around with the Amurites - excellent, well rounded culture, and the only one I really like that has much chance of founding Runes. I'm looking for and offering tips for the Amurites - marvel at my genius or show me my inferiority! Unfortunately, every tip I really have for them involves a use/exploit of Govannon, but what the heck - he's easily the most influential hero in the game besides Barnaxus.

Basic Leader Choice
It's a simple thing, but Valledia's Command Posts + Bowyers gives starting firebows 2 promotions, enough to grab Fireball and one other promotion. If you use Govannon to give them Body/Death/Chaos I, the second promotion can be used to grab Body/Death/Chaos II - Body I and II are particularly nice for a city defender/traffic director (having a unit with haste in every city can really speed unit movement through your empire).

Dain, OTOH, has a real edge in building the altar. See Priest Spam post for more details.

Use Lots of Warrior Disciple Units
Obviously, works best with the Altar, but you don't need it quite as much as other cultures (which is the whole point of the trick). This trick makes great use of Valledia's Arcane trait and is of use in the mid-game.

Disciple or Arcane units with Channeling have a chance to gain experience every round. Paramanders, Crusaders, Stygian Guard, Eidolons, and Paladins are all Disciple units which lack Channeling. Govannon grants Channeling I when he teaches any of his spells. So your warrior disciples will now gain experience for sitting around and doing nothing, and the only thing they have to gain is combat prowess. Haste and Dance of Blades are a nice combination of spells for a stack of warriors to have access to - diversify their combat specialities, and have whichever one isn't appropriate for your current combat use dance of blades to help the others. RoK is particularly nice for this, since you can toss Spiritual Hammer on your self-teaching Paramanders.

Stupid Druid Tricks
Druids got left out of that last one. That's okay, they have their own. Govannon can open up access to the Chaos, Death, and Body line to Druids. Chaos is particularly nice, with a spell for every branch of magic (top tier - Rage, Reversal of Fortune, and Pit Beast). This one is pretty well known, but hey! - not to me until recently. Mutation is a great pickup here as well, since running Order or RoK will allow you to cure 2 out of 3 of the negative Mutations.

Contagion Rules
It's a little thing, but when I started reading these boards and the wiki I saw a lot more people talking about Fireball than I ever did about Contagion. Against troops beyond 1st tier, in large stacks, Fireball is mostly wasted. True, it can destroy city defenses, but as a means of damaging troops it's not particularly impressive. You need, what, four or five fireballs to blow through even a moderate city defense, before you do any damage to the enemies there? 5 Contagions or so, on the other hand, will kill the vast majority of city defenders, and unless they are disease immune, have a caster with cure disease, or the healing wonder they won't be healing that damage quickly. If you're trying to take a big city, this is a good time to use your spellstaff for another contagion.

When you're able, be sure to bring along some priests with Cure Disease to make it safer for your troops to move in and finish any stragglers. Until then, have a few skeletons travel with your mage/firebow stack, and use a combination of skellies and fireballs from your firebows to finish any remaining resistance.

Obviously, you may need to change your reliance on Contagion if you're fighting an opponent with a lot of undead or demons. Don't discount it entirely, however - mass Contagion is still the safest way to obliterate an oncoming stack of Ritualists who are eager to annihilate you with their Ring of Fire, and Contagion, unlike RoF, benefits from Spell Extension. You can then use your loyal, mutant, etc. Paramanders to clean up the demon problem.
 
What version are you playing? I am pretty sure that someone convinced Kael that is is unfair for Amurite Druids to have access to those four extra spell-spheres, so he made it so that Govannon cannot teach disciples (much to my chagrin).
 
What version are you playing? I am pretty sure that someone convinced Kael that is is unfair for Amurite Druids to have access to those four extra spell-spheres, so he made it so that Govannon cannot teach disciples (much to my chagrin).
But Govannon can still teach scouts, hunters, and rangers which all can upgrade to druids. The Balseraphs get a similar bonus upgrading from Harlequins to Druids (chaos and mind). I think that the fix was directed towards the T3 priests (Confessors, etc.) to preserve the uniqueness of each religion's divine spheres. There are still ways to get around it, but it's much more difficult and requires T4 units.
 
I realize that, but xAlephx was talking about using Govannon to teach Crusaders, Paramanders, Sygian Guards, Paladins, and Eidola (the proper greek plural). I have found no ways to do that (other than altering the python file ;))
 
Apparently I'm not up to date... I think I'm on .21.

Someone convinced him that the Amurites were unfair? That's odd... I think of them as definitely a mid-powered civ. I prefer their play style to many others, but I don't think they are in the range of the Calabim, the elves, or a rush oriented Dov or Hippus.

Well, that pretty much puts the kibosh on most of that, although I appreciate the ranger trick. Some one want to talk build orders, mana priorities, or other strats? Most of my other thoughts on the Amurites are pretty common sense... "get lots of mana" probably doesn't merit placement in a guide.
 
I think the affinity system for summons is goig to hurt them. If you want powreful elementals or other summons, you will need multiple mana of whatever types you want to summon. But doing that will decrease your adept experience. I think it will tip the balance for the magic civs toward those who will focus on a few mana types.

edit- on second thought, taking 2 or 4 mana of a sphere you will always be summoning in for the free access to those spheres is worth more than the extra xp plus gives you the affinity on summons. So, ignore what I said before.
 
Unfortunate that one of the mods they are doing will cause one of the two ostensibly most magical cultures to suffer magically in comparison to others (particularly given the changes to Govannon I was unaware of). Maybe they should either drop the different mana requirements for Cave of Ancestors, or perhaps increase the experience bonuses it offers (double would seem too much, but XP = 150% of mana types would seem workable). In the end, however, I rarely use conjurers for the Amurites, given my passion for Contagion and the utility of even a single use spellstaff. I'm really not tapped into the upcoming changes, however, so who knows.

On the other hand, on reflection I assume you can still use the Paramander trick I described earlier by using Soldiers of Kilmorph, which are melee units, and then upgrading them to Paramanders. You may even make them better than before, if you Enchant their weapons and that ability is retained after the upgrade. I haven't updated yet, though, so I can't confirm this - I know that in my edition Rangers upgraded to Druids can retain their Poisoned Blades, so it stands to reason that Soldiers would keep Enchanted Weapons, but that may have been closed as a loophole in the last upgrade.
 
For me, Dain is by far the better Amurite leader simply because of how incredibly powerful Philosophical is in this mod (far more so than in vanilla, where it was already one of the best). And Dain is probably the best-placed leader to run something close to the traditional specialist/farm economy (possibly even more so that Einion "Gandhi" Logos), by taking full advantage of agriculture and using food as the primary driver of your economy. Oh yeah, this is all at monarch/raging barbs/aggressive ai/normal speed/normal size, so your mileage may vary.

Dain is all about the quick rush to Arcane Lore, which ROCKS for the Amurites. It most importantly gives the Scholarship civic, which lets you run lots more sages and boosts research massively. Plus it gives Govannon (and maybe Hemah) and Crown of Akharien.
And on the way there, you get Adepts/Wizards/Conjurers, the Ancestral Cave and some useful nodes.

So early-game you focus on building up farms to get up to pop limit and quickly push out lots of settlers. Cheap Elder Councils rather than cottages drive early research, and get built pretty much immediately in every new city. Libraries (and/or Temples of the Overlords if you go that route) are high priorities as well for assigning more sages (and maybe priests). If you micromanage a little, you can have almost all your cities running specialists early on without wasting great people points.

You should be able to get six great sages by ~turn 150-200 (way more achievable than it sounds). The first will come out really early, and an academy in the capital at this point can boost your civ-wide research rate by almost 50%. The next five get spent on lightbulbing Alteration, Elementalism, Sorcery, Summoning and Arcane Lore. At Monarch, each sage will give about 2/3 of the latter three techs, so you have to research the rest yourself, which doesn't take long. Once you've got these techs, your research rate will be through the roof, plus you'll have wizards and conjurers (and Govannon!) way before anyone else.
What's cool is that you're still getting normal research pretty quickly, so you can keep up with useful economic and military techs at the same time. Priorities are Bronze Working, Code of Laws, Construction, and Sanitation, which all improve farming. I use axemen backed up by bunches of (hopefully bronze-armed) warriors for early defense (with haste for mobility), but there might be better options.

For mine, the Veil is definitely the religion of choice here. The temples let you assign a sage, and Sacrifice The Weak is incredibly powerful with massed farms (and gains a frightening momentum when you start rushing granaries and smokehouses and baths), either for lightning-fast production or assigning masses of specialists. The -20% GPP isn't nice, but it's not really a drama. Unlike Slavery or Arete, you can also run Caste System at the same time, for up to 5RP per sage.
Once you get Scholarship, the Veil really takes off, with obscene numbers of sage specialists and lots of research. The next two Great Sages can go to Stigmata on the Unborn and an academy in the same city for a huge research boost. And Infernal Grimoire can quickly rush Strength of Will (9000+RP) to give insanely-early archmages.

Early religion can also be good, for the big early boost to the happiness cap with God-King/Religion. I prefer Octopus, mostly for the extra sages from the Temple and asylum, the Drown to defend or rush, the culture, Hemah, and the slavery. I would only found Kilmorph or Leaves for temporary happiness and money/culture, with an eye to switching to the Veil later, and I definitely wouldn't research their second tech. I think Octopus is a bit of a waste if you're planning to switch to Veil later.

In 0.22b, I managed to get some wolves trapped behind my civ borders, who then grew to masses of wolf packs and became a handy training ground to get my adepts lots of xp nice and quick. With Infernal Grimoire, I had archmages not long after turn 200. It was very nice, though it felt rather cheap.

Anyway, Dain rocks!
 
So early-game you focus on building up farms to get up to pop limit and quickly push out lots of settlers. Cheap Elder Councils rather than cottages drive early research, and get built pretty much immediately in every new city. Libraries (and/or Temples of the Overlords if you go that route) are high priorities as well for assigning more sages (and maybe priests). If you micromanage a little, you can have almost all your cities running specialists early on without wasting great people points.

I did that, but got barb spammed from an Arceron city, and then Calabin had builded an armie of settlers and took all places :( But my time will come when govannon will come...
 
On Dain - I'm really bad at specialist based strats, although I normally have seen Logos/Priest instead of Dain/Sage. Maybe I'll do better here.

I assume you go with a few well placed cottages? If I don't have some form of early gold, then all this expansion is going to choke the life out of my research.

If I do ag/mysticism/education/writing, would you suggest using the free sage for KotE pop, as a super specialist, or as 2nd academy - he comes after my first sage, so with Academy he yields great dividends as an early researcher so I'm tempted to go there. Or is this ill conceived and I should push first for mining and bronze for some production and defense.
 
Perhaps this should be moved intot he strategy subforum if it's still being used?

Btw I'm having a great game with valledian building the altar--there is nice synergy in the priest and sorceror lines. Hint use the tower of divination to get omniscience for free.
 
On Dain - I'm really bad at specialist based strats, although I normally have seen Logos/Priest instead of Dain/Sage. Maybe I'll do better here.
Sages are fun because they're doing your normal research for you too, Great Sages have a MUCH better lightbulbing path than prophets, and they give 50% more research than other great people.

I assume you go with a few well placed cottages? If I don't have some form of early gold, then all this expansion is going to choke the life out of my research.
Yeah, but it's not really a drama, and I didn't actually build a single cottage in my last game (though I must admit I did stick my capital next to a gold mine).
Most of your research is coming from elder councils and sages (and soon libraries), which is independent of the science rate, so I've just run God King and a 80-50% science rate and it's worked out fine for me. A few cottages on overlapping squares between cities definitely helps though.

I don't find early expansion to be nearly as crippling as it was in vanilla (maybe because farms let you grow new cities to size so quickly). I might have overstated the importance of expansion anyway, you just want to make sure you get your fair share of the land early.

If I do ag/mysticism/education/writing, would you suggest using the free sage for KotE pop, as a super specialist, or as 2nd academy - he comes after my first sage, so with Academy he yields great dividends as an early researcher so I'm tempted to go there. Or is this ill conceived and I should push first for mining and bronze for some production and defense.
Save him! I've been tempted before and I reckon it's a mistake. You need five saved-up sages to bulb your way to Arcane Lore, and he just makes it that much easier.

Anyway, I like ag/myst/craft/mining/ed/writing, and vs monarch AI I've always still gotten the sage. Less likely vs human, but it's not a crippling blow.
 
Do melee units keep their weapons promotions (bronze, iron, mithril) when promoted to a unit that can't use them? Just imagine an (unlimited) army of Str 8 +1 Holy Paramander (upgraded from Soldier of Kilmorph) with enchanted blade, city raider III, (iron weapons, spiritual hammer), free XP and a few spells. That would put macemen to shame. With a detour with the Order, you could get three Str 12 + 4 holy Paladins, or two more strength with mithril weapons!
 
Do melee units keep their weapons promotions (bronze, iron, mithril) when promoted to a unit that can't use them? Just imagine an (unlimited) army of Str 8 +1 Holy Paramander (upgraded from Soldier of Kilmorph) with enchanted blade, city raider III, (iron weapons, spiritual hammer), free XP and a few spells. That would put macemen to shame. With a detour with the Order, you could get three Str 12 + 4 holy Paladins, or two more strength with mithril weapons!

No, the weapons are dropped if the unit changes to something that cant use them.
 
Edit - I founded veil as soon as I finished Arcane Lore, worked well, then pushed math.

My word... gambling halls are jaw dropping in a pure specialist research environment where you're storing the majority of the gold you generate. I'm ignoring Unyielding Order entirely since many of my cities have 30+ happiness without public baths.
 
My word... gambling halls are jaw dropping in a pure specialist research environment where you're storing the majority of the gold you generate. I'm ignoring Unyielding Order entirely since many of my cities have 30+ happiness without public baths.

Yeah, I'm trying this sage farm thing too. I havn't come that far yet, but that's true, I gotta get gambling halls in my current game myself.

Instant Wizards is awesome btw :D - all you need is Cave of Ancestry, 6 mana total (starting 3, 2 connected and Religion building), and Conquest + Apprenticeship. They can start with Fireballs at 4 range with Combat I, or Charm as backup (so funny watching the enemy not being able to retaliate while you bombard him with fireballs).
 
Edit - I founded veil as soon as I finished Arcane Lore, worked well, then pushed math.

My word... gambling halls are jaw dropping in a pure specialist research environment where you're storing the majority of the gold you generate. I'm ignoring Unyielding Order entirely since many of my cities have 30+ happiness without public baths.

Damn! I never paid attention to those, that's obscene! +1 happy per 10% gold???? My god, what have I missed???

Anyway I was going to respond to your post before you edited it, but my computer died in the middle of my response :(
I really reckon the time to push Veil is well before Arcane Lore, since you're gonna want to whip pretty much every city until your hands are bleeding, so you probably won't be running all those specialists anyway. I'd use it to quickly whip in temples and savants, then whip in Rosier and meanwhile some military and a mages guild+cave+tonnes of adepts in one or two cities. If you intersperse a bunch of happiness buildings (temples, breweries, baths and gambling houses if you've got them, carnivals maybe) in the queue, you can whip way more often than every ten turns. In any case, there's not a lot of room for extra specialists here, but if you've done all this before Arcane Lore, you're gonna skyrocket when you get there.

Yeah, I'm trying this sage farm thing too. I havn't come that far yet, but that's true, I gotta get gambling halls in my current game myself.

Instant Wizards is awesome btw :D - all you need is Cave of Ancestry, 6 mana total (starting 3, 2 connected and Religion building), and Conquest + Apprenticeship. They can start with Fireballs at 4 range with Combat I, or Charm as backup (so funny watching the enemy not being able to retaliate while you bombard him with fireballs).

I tried the same strat with Philo Varn Gosam and I REALLY missed the Cave (and Govannon!).
I'm starting to agree with the mage rush idea, maybe a brief stop after Sorcery to whip infrastructure/military up and whip out some guilds and caves and lots of adepts. Personally, I'd stick with agriculture and wait a few turns for the adepts to get from 7 or 8 up to 10xp (or farm the masses of wolf packs that are probably stuck in your backyard).
I've had great success with combat3+fire2 mages at the start, with a haste caster as backup. 4 of them can take on pretty much anything the enemy has at that point, including capitals. The combat promos really give them the edge to damage city defenders. The spellstaves also rock here for taking heavily-defended capitals.
I suppose the other bonus of this mage rush is that, if there's any enemies actually left, you'll probably have six archmage-level guys to quickly upgrade if you rush Strength of Will with Infernal Grimoire or Tower of Divination.

Anyone have thoughts on mana node choice in 0.22? I figure Enchantment is a good first pick, for the happiness and the boost to meatshield units, and spellstaff replenishment later on. Earth is nice too. A death node is essential once you get necromancy, and maybe law for unyielding order.
 
Anyone have thoughts on mana node choice in 0.22? I figure Enchantment is a good first pick, for the happiness and the boost to meatshield units, and spellstaff replenishment later on. Earth is nice too. A death node is essential once you get necromancy, and maybe law for unyielding order.

If you want every mana type, or just want to build the tower of mastery I'd go for this order:

You start with Fire, Mind and Body

- Enchantment Mana (the happiness, as well as the spells are good)
- Spirit Mana (+5% GPP)
- Chaos Mana (or capture the Wyrmhold if possible) Gives Dance of Blades so can be good to get early, and is only one required for Tower of Necromancy you need after you get the buildings for Entropy and Death
- Found OO, and get the prophet for Water Mana or capture the holy city
- Found Veil, and get the sage for Entropy (might wanna wait with actually building this building unless you are prepared for war with good civs)
- Found or Capture the RoK Holy City, preferably after the Tablets of Bambur has been built for Earth mana
- Found or Capture the Leaves Holy City for Nature Mana, preferably after Song of Autumn has been built
- Build the Soul Forge for Death Mana (again, be wary of Good civs)
- Capture the city with Tomb of Sucellus for Life Mana
- Capture the Order Holy City for Law Mana

This should be enough to build all the towers.
  • Chaos, Death, Entropy for Tower of Necromancy,
  • Life, Law, Spirit for Tower of Divination,
  • Fire, Water, Earth for Tower of Elements, and
  • Body, Enchantment and Nature for Tower of Alteration.
 
It's strange that the best way to get a builder victory is to just conquer everyone.
 
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