A New Discovery of Techs Mechanic for Civilization 5

We've radically changed the mechanic, so I've started a new thread here. I'm leaving the originals intact for reference/historical purposes.

This thread is being spun off of this one in order to make discussion easier (since that thread really described two different mechanisms).

Mxzs did a great job summarizing the philosophy of this system here.

Last Updated: June 7th, 2007

Gameplay Mechanics: Discovery

Prerequisites/Influencers
Techs can have Prerequisites and Influencers.
Prerequisites must be Adopted before the Tech can be Discovered. If a Prerequisite is Abandoned, dependent Techs receive a Abandoned Prereq modifier.
Influencers do not have to be Adopted or even Discovered, however, doing so will make it more likely to discover and easier to adopt.
Because of the existence of Influencers, Techs will no longer have funnelled prereqs. For example: Guilds (Economics) requires Machinery (Manufacturing) as an Influencer. Since Metal Casting (Manufacturing) is a Prerequisite for Machinery, it is also considered an Influencer for Guilds.
If the Classic Tech Tree is turned on, all Influencers are considered Prerequisites for gameplay purposes.

Discovery of a Tech
As noted below, there are six branches on the Tech Tree. At most points in the game, a Tech is being 'examined' from each branch. The exceptions are when there are no techs remaining in the branch, or all the remaining techs in the branch require an unadopted prerequisite.

The specific tech being examined in a branch is chosen from the pool of all available Techs (that do not have unadopted prerequisites). The likelihood of a specific tech being examined is a factor of age (earlier techs are more likely to be examined) and influencers (techs that require an adopted influencer are more likely to be examined than one in which a influencer is not adopted). The Player does not sees what tech is being examined until he has adopted Scientific Method. If the prereq of an examined tech is abandoned, the examined tech is no longer examined (losing all of its discovery points) and a new tech is chosen from the branch pool.

The Tech being examined is randomly selected from the pool of all available (ie meets the prerequisites) Techs. All techs have the same base chance of being examined, with reductions based on Age (for example, -X% per Age later than the current one ... so in the Ancient Age, you'd have -X% for a Classical Age Tech, -2X% for a Medieval Tech, etc.) and Lack of Known Influencers (formerly Soft Prerequisites) of -Y% per Influencer not known. So without Chemistry, it'd be harder to get Steam Power examined. Being in the Classical Age and not having Chemistry makes it much harder. But presuming you have the prereqs, it's not impossible.

Only one branch receives discovery points per turn. This is necessary to prevent a Civ discovering six techs in the same turn (and then having a huge wait for the next tech) and should do a better job of spacing out Tech Discovery.

The branch receiving the points is based on % chance. The % chance is influenced by two factors: What You Want, and What You Do

What You Want: Minimum of 10% per branch, so you can put max 50% in one. This is the player's choice.

What You Do: Everything you do in the game puts value towards one of the branches. X points per Bank towards Economics. Y points per Spearman towards Manufacturing. Z points per Plantation Worked towards Discovery. And so on. I had originally thought to have a declining value for each of these actions (i.e. build a Bank, get X points that turn, .8X the next turn, .6X the subsequent turn, etc.,), but then I realized that would allow for quick giant shifts in Civilization mentality (after five turns it wouldn't matter that you spent most of the game as a mercantile Civ, you could become a militaristic one). So everything sticks. [Note: Obviously this will require serious playtesting to determine proper values for X, Y, and Z]

Once the game calculates What You Do, then it determines how to apply What You Want as follows:
Let's say you have a perfectly balanced empire and you have 150 points per branch, for 900 points total. The %s you specified are then based off of 900 points. So, let's say you give 50% to Manufacturing and 10% to the rest (Alexander just declared War). So the odds of which branch gets discovery points this turn is:

33% (150 WYD + 450 WYW = 600/1800): Manufacturing
13.33% (150 WYD + 90 WYW = 240/1800): Everything else

So on average, you'd be putting Discovery Points into Manufacturing every 3 turns.

Every Tech has an X number of Discovery points that must be accumulated before it can be 'Discovered'. The more advanced the tech, the more Discovery points required. This will likely be tied into the Age of the Tech (For example, Ancient Techs requires 50 discovery points, Classical requires 100, etc.)

'Discovery points' are based on population (the more people in your empire, the more likely you are to invent something before modifiers). The formula is SUM(Xc/Yc), where Xc is the number of citizens in a city and Yc is the distance of the city from the Capital (how X and Y are generated, i.e. is X equal to the number of the city, is Y equal to tile distance, etc., is unknown at this time. Do not take the equation literally). The distance factor is in the game to prevent large spread-out empires from running away in the Tech Race, and reflects the reality that discoveries at the edge of your empire are unlikely to make their way back to the Capital. [Note: Forbidden Palace and Versailles will be factors as well for determining what Y is in the equation]

Discovery points are modified by the following:

• Civilization traits. If you are predisposed to a tech tree branch due to your civilization traits, you receive a bonus X% discovery points when that branch is selected
• War. Unless Always War is selected, when you are in War you receive a bonus X% discovery points if the destination branch is one of the Military ones, or a minus X% discovery points if it is not
• ?

Discovery points are calculated and allotted at the end of the Player's turn. A Discovery occurs at the beginning of the next turn. Because only one branch gets allotted each turn, you can never discover more than one tech (exceptions being Great People/Huts) in the same turn. However, it is feasible that you'll discover a tech a few turns in a row (never more than six, of course -- after which it might be awhile before you discover a new one).

Note: Research has NO EFFECT on Discovery of a Tech.

Once a Tech is discovered ... see the original thread

Tech Tree Branches

This is the Tech Tree (without Prereqs/Influencers) for the first 3 ages.

The following modifications have been made to the Civ 4 Tech Tree:

• Philosophy is now an ancient age tech (will have different benefits)
• I've eliminated Archery as a tech (Hunting will suffice)
• Astronomy has been made a middle age tech (applies only to land Astronomy; there will be a Navigation tech that replaces Astronomy for its current benefits)

There are six branches that make up the tech tree. They are:

• Manufacturing
• Economics
• Discovery
• Civilization
• Philosophy
• Government

The following is a list of the branches and their techs for the first 3 ages


Each Civilization Trait has a predisposition towards one of the six branches. The predisposition causes a Trait Modifier for discovery calculations (see above). Here is the list of Trait dispositions:

Forthcoming(?) -- May drop Trait Modifiers for Discovery Calculations, still contemplating.

The descriptions above are based on an idea where the Discovery of Techs can be deliberately influenced by the Player (i.e. they can allot Discovery % however they feel within the limits proscribed). What I believe we should do is change it so that the Discovery mechanism is based on what the player does, not what he decides. Ideally, this would cause a feedback loop of Tech -> Action -> Tech (that is, I build Spears, that encourages the discovery of military techs, I can build Pikes or I build Markets, that encourages the discovery of Banking, I then can build Banks)

However, we need to make sure it doesn't imbalance the game in a specific direction. My next post will be a rewrite of the above with an implicit mechanism ... but give me a few hours, ok?

Reserved for New Mechanism Proposal

I've gone ahead and modified the first post.

Reserved ...

One thing to make clear before we get started: how this looks to the Player.

With Tech Discovery in this system, the player can try to influence (explicitly -- as it is defined now -- or implicitly -- as I hope to change it) what Tech pops next. However, they have no firm control over it. All the Player sees is that every so often an advisor pops up saying:

"Sire, we have received word that someone has discovered Iron Working!"

Everything else will occur hidden from the player. They won't know what Techs may be about to be discovered. They can't beeline to a specific tech. They can't even guarantee that the next Tech they get is a Military one. So we're discussing an internal mechanism here.

A second thing to make clear: this system is going to be designed to be used either with the Adoption-Embrace-Abandonment system I designed in the original thread or it should be usable with the current tech tree with a minimum of changes (the biggest being translating Discovery Points to Lightbulbs). So keep that in mind.

I think that if the branches are carved up nicely, that still gives the player the main interesting choices. "I'm not really sure if I'm gonna develop stealth or robotics next, but I do know that I've invested a lot of research into the military branch."

For all the element of chance involved in this new system, you don't want to lose the element of choice: that's the most popular part of the current tech tree.

dh_epic said:

I think that if the branches are carved up nicely, that still gives the player the main interesting choices. "I'm not really sure if I'm gonna develop stealth or robotics next, but I do know that I've invested a lot of research into the military branch."

For all the element of chance involved in this new system, you don't want to lose the element of choice: that's the most popular part of the current tech tree.

Click to expand...

What's the best way of adding choice though? Should the player be able to make some decisions on which branch receives discovery points? Maybe not the full 40% is controlled by the system? Maybe 75% is determined by calculation (7% to each branch and 33% divvied up based on game decisions) and 25% by the player?

Let me work on some real-game examples, that should help the discussion.

To me, the discovery points would be randomly distributed between all techs and all branches. "Earlier" techs on the branch would get more points than "later" techs on the branch.

The players would no longer get to chose a technology. But the player would have a choice over branches. "Let's put 50% into military, and 10% into everything else". Whatever allocation they want -- maybe within certain limits to prevent oddities.

Besides that, certain behaviors would encourage certain branches: war would distribute 10% more tech to military branches (and whether this is a simple increase, or it's a zero sum game that subtracts from the other branches is something reasonable people can disagree on). Certain buildings would give you more discovery points to allocate. "Barracks: +1 lightbulb to military". "Library: +5 lightbulbs (spread across all branches)". Certain technologies, too: "Philosophy: +5% more lightbulbs (spread across all branches).

Some technologies would also have bonuses. "Domestication: 20% cheaper with cows/sheep/horses". Again, to allow players to not just direct their research towards a technology... but their entire empire. That's so damn cool that it might actually tempt a player away from the discrete choices of the classic tech tree.

Once an individual technology reaches a certain threshold, it is discovered. Adoption, of course, is a whole other issue.

dh_epic said:

Besides that, certain behaviors would encourage certain branches: war would distribute 10% more tech to military branches (and whether this is a simple increase, or it's a zero sum game that subtracts from the other branches is something reasonable people can disagree on). Certain buildings would give you more discovery points to allocate. "Barracks: +1 lightbulb to military". "Library: +5 lightbulbs (spread across all branches)". Certain technologies, too: "Philosophy: +5% more lightbulbs (spread across all branches).

Some technologies would also have bonuses. "Domestication: 20% cheaper with cows/sheep/horses". Again, to allow players to not just direct their research towards a technology... but their entire empire. That's so damn cool that it might actually tempt a player away from the discrete choices of the classic tech tree.

Click to expand...

Perfect! There are a lot individual items that could be keyed to research probabilities. They could be keyed in lots of different ways. Not just the presence of cattle, but the presence of pastures; not just the presence of pastures, but the number of them.

Most of these percentages should probably be aimed at the general knowledge branches, e.g., the presence of a Mine adds a bonus to the Science/Practical branch. But some could be keyed to individual techs. Possession of both a pasture and a farm, for instance, could increase the chance that Gunpowder is the tech that "pops."

I am passionately in love with the idea of a feedback loop, that the player's own choices mold his civilization in a certain direction rather than being hardwired in. In the limit, I'd love to see these choices gradually give the player the "civilization abilities" instead of having them set at the start. It's true that some civilizations have certain insistences, but "civilization ability" is a kludge, I've always thought.

Ok, spent some time thinking about it last night. Here's what I'm thinking:

Six Branches

Each Branch has one Tech being 'examined' at all times (presuming there are techs available to examine). I do not like the idea of distributing points among all the available Techs because then it takes a LOT longer for a Tech to be discovered (and with a sharp reduction in prerequisites, there's a lot more techs to distribute those points among)

The Tech being examined is randomly selected from the pool of all available (ie meets the prerequisites) Techs. All techs have the same base chance of being examined, with reductions based on Age (for example, -X% per Age later than the current one ... so in the Ancient Age, you'd have -X% for a Classical Age Tech, -2X% for a Medieval Tech, etc.) and Lack of Known Influencers (formerly Soft Prerequisites) of -Y% per Influencer not known. So without Chemistry, it'd be harder to get Steam Power examined. Being in the Classical Age and not having Chemistry makes it much harder. But presuming you have the prereqs, it's not impossible.

Only one branch receives discovery points per turn. This is necessary to prevent a Civ discovering six techs in the same turn (and then having a huge wait for the next tech) and should do a better job of spacing out Tech Discovery.

The branch receiving the points is based on % chance. The % chance is influenced by two factors: What You Want, and What You Do

What You Want: Minimum of 10% per branch, so you can put max 50% in one. This is the player's choice.

What You Do: Everything you do in the game puts value towards one of the branches. X points per Bank towards Philosophy/Theoretical. Y points per Musket towards Military/Defensive. Z points per Plantation Worked towards Science/Practical. And so on. I had originally thought to have a declining value for each of these actions (i.e. build a Bank, get X points that turn, .8X the next turn, .6X the subsequent turn, etc.,), but then I realized that would allow for quick giant shifts in Civilization mentality (after five turns it wouldn't matter that you spent most of the game as a mercantile Civ, you could become a militaristic one). So everything sticks. [Note: Obviously this will require serious playtesting to determine proper values for X, Y, and Z]

Once the game calculates What You Do, then it determines how to apply What You Want as follows:
Let's say you have a perfectly balanced empire and you have 150 points per branch, for 900 points total. The %s you specified are then based off of 900 points. So, let's say you give 50% to Military/Offensive and 10% to the rest (Alexander just declared War). So the odds of which branch gets discovery points this turn is:

33% (150 WYD + 450 WYW = 600/1800): Military/Offensive
13.33% (150 WYD + 90 WYW = 240/1800): Everything else

So on average, you'd be putting Discovery Points into Military/Offensive every 3 turns.

So keeping the same Discovery Point generation/bonuses from the original post ... I think we have a system. Thoughts?

Ok, I've started working on the Techs, and I've come to a startling (for me, anyhow) conclustion: 2 Military branches doesn't work. There aren't enough techs to justify them -- too many of the Units come with techs that aren't military (especially in the earlier ages). So I'm going to have to revamp the branches...but more importantly, I think I'm going to have to kill the Trait Association, but we'll see.

I hope to have the first 3 ages (42 techs, iirc) mapped this weekend.

Don't worry too much about linking the branches to traits or great people. In fact, don't worry too much about the number of branches. That's icing on the cake. The really important thing is some variety of branches, so players can choose a focus (since you've taken away their ability to choose a tech). But it's most important to find a sensible way to break down the history of ideas/technology into a few equal parts, in a way that makes sense for gameplay.

Tech Tree Layout -- Without Prereqs

Alright, here's the first attempt. I have ended up grouping the first 3 ages into 6 branches called:

• Manufacturing
• Economics
• Discovery
• Civilization
• Philosophy
• Government

The names aren't perfect, but they're the best I could come up with at 11:45 at night.

I have made 3 changes to the Civ 4 Tech Tree:

• Philosophy is now an ancient age tech
• I've eliminated Archery as a tech (Hunting will suffice)
• Astronomy has been made a middle age tech

This is just a start, obviously. Next step is to determine the prereqs and influencers for each tech.

AS posted in the before thread, I really like the idea.
To the above 6 branches - where is the military? Is that manu., mainly?
Also, since we're already beating up the techtree, you might solve the problem about the lack of tech by simply adding more. I mean, there could be smaller steps than archer -> -> -> longbowman.
something like this archer -> Yeoman archer -> Longbow militia -> Longbowman would make alot of sense.

There really aren't many Techs that can be considered dedicated to Military. Now, if this system were used for Civ 5, the Tech Tree could easily be modified in order to do so. However, I kind of like the fact that military isn't easy to pin down. It makes it so much harder for a player (or an AI even) to put their all their effort into military techs in the hope of overwhelming the world early.

If you had to call a thread 'Military', Manufacturing is probably closest. This actually ties in nicely with 19th Century Germany (new World Wonder: Krupp Works, all Artillery get +10% bombard)

I like the change. The "Military" branch was leaving me uneasy; it seemed like an invitation to those who like to make the dash to Military Tradition.

^ Agree. Should be harder to roll over the world in a bloodbath al through the game - and playing peaceful should be a little more effective.

Great work on this new prototype of the tech tree. I immediately like the organization. Obviously, reasonable people could disagree on the names of the branches, or where a tech or two should lie. But that's not the important part of this exercise. (Although, as a side note, it's probably best not to have a "Military" branch -- since that would concentrate too much power on one part of the tree.)

What we get from this is a few things.

1. Players have given up the ability to choose technologies. But they *can* focus on a branch.
2. We have more evidence that the discovery mechanic of the game can be changed without making a vastly larger tech tree

We're left with a few questions, though, which should be moderately challenging -- not impossible:

• Is it possible to make sensible and clean pre-requisites (soft/hard) for each tech, especially since the branches have been pulled apart?
• Does this have the intended payoff, with the potential for dark ages, and discovery influenced by environment and playstyle?

I'm not sure I'm a big fan of this idea.

One of the key elements of the tech tree in Civ has always been choice. You are completely in charge of what goes on. If you want Granaries you research Pottery. Don't care so much, would rather go to war with Swordsmen? Go for Iron Working.

You could argue "well, players can still choose what branch to emphasize!" I don't feel that's enough control. I want Swordsmen, not a slow march up the Military Branch. That's why it's Civ and not Europa Universalis. Both good games, but each has a different focus.

It's also more complex and I'm not sure what that adds. Say you're researching 6 techs instead of 1. Why is that better? Sounds like a proposal I've seen a lot before where people want to be able to build more than one thing at a time in a city. Doesn't seem to add anything besides more management overhead. Even with your proposed redesign to only add points to one branch... if there are 20 mysterious factors influencing it why is that better than if I can just pick what I want? You're removing even more choice from players by eliminating Research and forcing all "beakers" to come through Discovery Points, which players have no control over.

I guess my real question is: what does this actually add to the Civilization experience that was lacking before? It seems to remove a fair bit that was entertaining... I'm not sure what that's being replaced with.

Some people may enjoy a system where the way technology is chosen and acquired is more nebulous. But I don't think this is the sort of thing that should be forced on everyone.