Monarch (this may get painful)

obsolete · Jun 1, 2007

Alright, taking another shot at monarch level, with defaults on. This means Vassals are available. Since this ALWAYS screws me in one way or another I thought I'd make this into a walkthrough so advanced players can tell me what in God's name I'm doing wrong with vassals.

BTW, since it's default, maps are fractal, which tend to have less vassal problems than seperate continents. Also I have turn speed set on normal. While this is a bit of a penalty to my mobilization from say, a slower turn speed, I am trying to stick with defaults here, and if I win I won't feel as though I exploited.

Here is my starting location. I have a roman leader which gives me Organized, and Creative. I don't mind as I can start making culture right away from captured and settled cities.

Looking here, I am somewhat sad to see I have stone. Reason being is every time I am industrious and I want stone, I NEVER get it. Yet I get stone the instant I started playing here when I don't care for it (no I didn't regenerate the map!). Ugh, I wonder if the system gives resources depending what leaders you start off with.

I guess I should just settle down right now, instead of scouting a bit. The faster I get going the better. My plan right now is to beeline for bronze working, then iron. Then i'll know where to settle my next city (if I have to).

I also want to get into Slavery ASAP. I think I should emphasis food right now, to get the city up fast, and get ready to wip workers as soon as I get out of anarchy.

Thoughts?

r_rolo1 · Jun 1, 2007

I would settle in place. Too bad you're Roman: this is a ideal start for a Ind leader ( wonders, wonders and more wonders...)

.
About your idea of BW -> Worker :whipped:

: It is a good idea. You have a food-heavy spot and whipping workers in places like this one is more efficient than buiding them.

Sjaramei · Jun 1, 2007

Vassals screwing you over? Been there

The system is crap, but generally unless you want multiple civs attacking you, checking every turn if capitulation is available is a good idea. (if you skip one turn even your best friend can vassalize and backstab you)

They wont capitulate unless you have taken their capital (maybe gandhi and the other peaceloving idiots are different, not sure) so start checking after that.

And your plan is decent enough, though stone means you can still get pyramids if you want. (industrious isn't so important) Depends if you want to use your forests for that or not. Didn't see very many of them yet so it's not a sure thing.

VoiceOfUnreason · Jun 1, 2007

I'd settle on the hill - I'm willing to trade the fresh water for two extra hammers per turn. You still get the cows and the corn, though you sacrifice a bunch of trees and river tiles. You are roman, and planning to experiment with vassals, so it's not like you need to worry about having 20 prime tiles to work while you finish the last few space ship parts.

Sjaramei · Jun 1, 2007

VoiceOfUnreason said:
I'd settle on the hill - I'm willing to trade the fresh water for two extra hammers per turn. You still get the cows and the corn, though you sacrifice a bunch of trees and river tiles. You are roman, and planning to experiment with vassals, so it's not like you need to worry about having 20 prime tiles to work while you finish the last few space ship parts.

3 useless tiles and no fresh water for 1 extra hammer at capital? Thats crazy. I wouldn't recommend this at all. And about 20 "prime" tiles and space ship, you don't need that, you just need to be able to work the best. And the best are east of his capital, not west. I get cities who can work most of the tiles in a city like that around 1000 AD, so it's by no means a spaceship thingie. (Size 16-17 is usual capital size for me at that point.)

Charou · Jun 1, 2007

BW first, means that you build a warrior, right ?
No improvement possible starting with fishing and mining.

The more you wait to switch to slavery, the less the anarchy has a impact on your developpment course ( thing in terms of number of pop. ).
I usually switch to slavery one turn before my city grows, and I synchronize that with my first whip crack.

Dirk1302 · Jun 1, 2007

I'd settle in place, the idea of settling on the hill is interesting but very costly later on when you really don't want to have these desert tiles in capital.

As for early techs, this map screams AG-> AH IMO. If we find horses then i'd go wheel/pottery before BW building extremely early cots on the river floodplains, if not BW is next of course.

obsolete · Jun 1, 2007

Well, I will eventually hook up the stone, but I don't plan to waste hammers on wonders here. I don't get any bonus for wonder building, and why should I build any when I can conquere them? Let the other AIs waste their hammers on them.

Once the Pyramids are built in a far off land, I'll trade the useless stone for something that I can actually use, like Gold or something to make my citizens happy.

Assuming I don't get screwed again by not having any iron around, I want to focus on a prat army right from the get-go and keep the pressure on. Rarely do I ever found new cities except for getting my first iron.

The system is crap, but generally unless you want multiple civs attacking you, checking every turn if capitulation is available is a good idea.

I've tried this annoying thing of checking each turn, and even still they refuse to capitulate, almost always giving themselves to someone else though. I have no way of stopping it. Maybe I"m just on a horrible luck streak with this vassal nonsense.

One thing I have to get used to, is the unhappiness stays for 10 turns after whipping, not 6 (quick speed mode). My last game I had people waiting 30 turns due to unhappiness whipping on the same structure.

JimT · Jun 1, 2007

Settling in place seems great but I wouldn't wait for BW before getting a worker, every turn lost is an unimproved tile which would give you at least +2F/P. Meanwhile an extra citizen only gives you +1F +1C

Maybe build worker then build up pop so you can whip your settler when you get a bigger pop (pop 4 seems ideal).

In which case you would want AG and AH first

obsolete · Jun 1, 2007

Jim, if I work on worker first, my city can not grow. I don't like having a city stay at size 1 for so long. I like to have it grow so when I am done Bronze, i can rush one instantly. Also having a bigger city early = more science & monies. I'll be rushing more than 1 worker as soon as I get slavery anyhow.

I don't have the statistics confined to memory, so maybe getting a worker from the start is ok. I just always prefer to emphasis food and grow my city up till they turn red so I can whip like a maniac. Hmm..

JimT · Jun 1, 2007

obsolete said:
Jim, if I work on worker first, my city can not grow. I don't like having a city stay at size 1 for so long. I like to have it grow so when I am done Bronze, i can rush one instantly. Also having a bigger city early = more science & monies. I'll be rushing more than 1 worker as soon as I get slavery anyhow.

I don't have the statistics confined to memory, so maybe getting a worker from the start is ok. I just always prefer to emphasis food and grow my city up till they turn red so I can whip like a maniac. Hmm..

Each to there own strategies. My opinion is until you get a worker your only getting one commerce and one food from the extra citizen so I would rather have the worker earlier. Once you have whipped you will be down to one citizen anyway. After that grow and whip

It's personal choice anyway

Sjaramei · Jun 1, 2007

obsolete said:
I've tried this annoying thing of checking each turn, and even still they refuse to capitulate, almost always giving themselves to someone else though. I have no way of stopping it. Maybe I"m just on a horrible luck streak with this vassal nonsense.

Well if you check early on the turn and then capture a city or two and end it there, some other civ might vassalize. The key is checking after every city capture or at the end of your turn. If i get enemy vassalization against me it's always because i forgot to check before ending my turn

obsolete · Jun 1, 2007

Alright, got bronze, and Ironworking is done. Now time for roads to hook it up. But we have a problem!!!

I found every stinking resource but IRON. I knew it! Seems when I want stone, I'll never find it but i'll get plenty iron. When I need iron, I get plenty stone. Argggg.

At least my warrior guy found agriculture before two lions pounced on him. Two lions which, went after me when they had the chance to attack an AI character but decided to ignore him to target the human player. At least I ran into Korea pretty early, so I can only hope he is somewhat close by. I suspect to the East. Still not sure what's down South, seems I am having a lot of problem with lots of lions all over. In fact the warrior I have right now selected just got mauled right off the assembly line. Note he has ZERO health. 0. Yet somehow firaxis is telling me he is alive still and ready for battle! I wonder if I'd get a division by zero error ever trying that...

Charou · Jun 1, 2007

obsolete said:
Well, I will eventually hook up the stone, but I don't plan to waste hammers on wonders here. I don't get any bonus for wonder building, and why should I build any when I can conquere them? QUOTE]

Not being a Ind civ isnot such a disadvantage when having stone and marble.
only +20% build time . Its not that big a deal.
I really think you should build the oracle ! It's more than a wonder its a tech, pretty cheap. You are denying it to the AI. You don't want to see your target build it to get ... huhuh ... feudalism and those damned longbows. (It can happen)

You could get CoL, which is critical when you are warring to expand,
playing an organized civ its easy to leverage it by whipping courthouses
You absolutly need the following techs to play as AUgustus they you want.
BW to use slavery
Iron Working ( duh !!)
Wheel ( connect ressources in the cities you invaded )
Code of laws ( courthouses, baby ... courthouses )

Charou · Jun 1, 2007

obsolete said:
I found every stinking resource but IRON. I knew it! Seems when I want stone, I'll never find it but i'll get plenty iron. When I need iron, I get plenty stone. Argggg.

You have unreconned area 3 tiles away from your borders. It's too soon to claim that Iron is nowhere to be found. You have lot of exploring ahead of you.

Sisiutil · Jun 1, 2007

When playing as Rome, I usually research The Wheel right after BW so I can hook up copper for Axemen, then research IW. Then you would be building Axemen right now instead of wasting hammers on Warriors.

Do you have a Settler ready to pounce on the closest source of iron once your exploring units reveal it? If not, get one going.

VoiceOfUnreason · Jun 1, 2007

Sjaramei said:
3 useless tiles and no fresh water for 1 extra hammer at capital? Thats crazy. I wouldn't recommend this at all.

Not 1 extra hammer. Two - that plains hill has a base 3 hammer output thanks to the marble, and you keep that production when you settle there. That's a 5FP tile that you get to work for free, not an enormous advantage long term, except that it is a huge immediate advantage, and opening advantages tend to cascade if you leverage them.

You can see from the opening position that you aren't missing any hills, you aren't missing any of the resources that you can see. You are picking up the stone (in the desert, so not ideal). You've got a move in pocket, so a first step west will expose a few tiles (you can learn a little bit more before you have to commit).

Side question: what size population do you need to overcome that two hammer advantage? At size one and two we are working the same tiles (size three as well, as it happens with the discovery of copper). The next two population probably ride the shared floodplains... You pick up one hammer when you start working the marble (I'll be working the grassland mine at that point, so I lose 5 to 4 at that point....) Note that I'm ignoring the Oasis, as I had no way of knowing that was there in the initial screen shot - pure luck.

VoiceOfUnreason · Jun 1, 2007

JimT said:
Each to there own strategies. My opinion is until you get a worker your only getting one commerce and one food from the extra citizen so I would rather have the worker earlier. Once you have whipped you will be down to one citizen anyway. After that grow and whip

It's personal choice anyway

You are getting the worker one turn earlier. The whipping alternative instead gets an extra warrior and 5 turns of movement (15 raw hammers by turn 10, invest them whatever way you like). I think one of those personal choices is easier to defend than the other.

Disclaimer: the math changes with game speed, when extra hammers/commerce are available, when you want to use some other research path....

obsolete · Jun 1, 2007

When playing as Rome, I usually research The Wheel right after BW so I can hook up copper for Axemen, then research IW. Then you would be building Axemen right now instead of wasting hammers on Warriors.

I can't argue with that. I just always had problems in past when delaying Ironworking seems to always screw me by having someone else settle the area before me (finding it out too late). But I guess if I had a bunch of axe-men by then, it wouldn't be so bad if the AI even did...

I don't think I can research the techs and waste time building the oracle but... maybe I'll give it a go. Normally I only build such things when industrious.

futurehermit · Jun 1, 2007

At this point i would say marble = GL and Parthenon while stone = Univ of Sankore and ???

Go conquer yourself some iron.

Monarch (this may get painful)

Deity

King of myself

Prince

Deity

Prince

Warlord

Deity

Deity

Warlord

Deity

Warlord

Prince

Deity

Warlord

Warlord

All Leader Challenger

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Similar threads