MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
Well, in StarShip Troopers, only those that had served in the military got to vote and be citizens. If you didnt have the 'nerve to serve' then you didnt get as many rights.
"Heinlein's democracy"
- Thread starter MobBoss
- Start date
Well, in StarShip Troopers, only those that had served in the military got to vote and be citizens. If you didnt have the 'nerve to serve' then you didnt get as many rights.
C~G
Untouchable
- Joined
- May 24, 2006
- Messages
- 4,146
Sidestepping Godwin here I must say that maybe it would be better we never reach that point.
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
C~G
Untouchable
- Joined
- May 24, 2006
- Messages
- 4,146
Well, Starship troopers is claimed to have fascist elements leading usually claims of being similar to, you know what
Not a surprise there. Of course your wife and kids cannot vote then unless they also serve in military.
I don't find this reasonable idea at all. Country needs all kinds of people voting, forgetting one group (let alone all but one) would be undermining democracy.
GenMarshall
High Elven ISB Capt & Ghost Agent
Glad I am not living in the Starship Trooper universe since I would refuse to serve in the military. However I would demand the right to vote and to be a citizen.
Ecofarm
Deity
You missunderstood. I meant to clarify the post (which I quoted). My post was a review of that one. Personally, I believe morals = good, nanny state = bad.
@CivGeneral
You demand the rights of a citizen, but you would refuse to defend those rights? Good thing there's plenty of people willing to fight for their country, or you would not have one.
plarq
Crazy forever
It's dangerous to hold past standards as doctrines.
(For a USian) It's Okay to hate Germans in the WWII, it's not OK to hate them now. Got it?
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
Whats wrong with that? I am encouraging my kids to serve in the military and they are free to do so if they wish.
Actually, I think making your vote mean something...i.e. citizenship...would be a good thing. I mean come on......only just over 50% vote right now, it wouldnt be that much of a change really.
mrt144 said:
Errrr. I didnt refer to the entire story...just the part about citizenship and voting.
ecofarm said:
QFT.
C~G
Untouchable
- Joined
- May 24, 2006
- Messages
- 4,146
Well there's the stigma that people who go to military will find military solutions more preferable compared to peaceful solutions meaning that the military complex becomes more prominent in the issues of national interest so eventually it will lead to society that is always in war. Probably needlessly and sometimes without "rightful cause".
So, your solution is we send you to Iraq and then you can vote?
And if you are journalist reporting wrongly (in too liberal fashion) you won't get to vote either?
Why I don't find any logic in this?
It's true that the voting rates are pathetic but I think something else should come along and spice things up than this as this is true in many countries. Finland has pathetic too rates and most of the have to go males go to the army. They aren't interested about politics more than someone who doesn't go (most women with exception of few).
Maybe if politicians would be more concentrated into issues rather than general idealistic BS then people could get interested. Then there's of course the issue of corruption and the possibility that politicans lie to their own people just to make something look like an important idea.
Ziggy Stardust
Absolutely Sane
So a diplomat who just averted war by his cunning way with words can take a hike if he wants to vote?
In many countries the military contains a high proportion of individuals from lower educational and intellectual segments. In addition miltary units attaract individuals with a heightened sense of aggression.
It would seem strange to bias citizenship rights toward the less intelligent and more violent sections of society?
BFR
PS - Heinlein was a good writer, I enjoyed his books, but he was an out and out fascist to boot!
It would seem strange to bias citizenship rights toward the less intelligent and more violent sections of society?
BFR
PS - Heinlein was a good writer, I enjoyed his books, but he was an out and out fascist to boot!
Ecofarm
Deity
I have no idea how this relates to serving in the military.
Wrong. The surgeons, nuclear physicists, pilots, chaplins (oh, they are SO agressive!), helicopter repairmen, computer programmers, and leaders of the military are not 'less intelligent' or necessarily 'more agressive' than the general population. Side note: nor do they come from poorer backgrounds. To be an officer, you must have a college degree. Not everyone is a dumb grunt (there were more intelligent people in my infantry platoon than in most of my college classes); just as in civilian life, not everyone is a 'dumb foot soldier'. How many murders are there in the military, per capita, compared to civilians? How many rapes? Answer: WAY LESS. It seems to me that civilians are the ignorant dumb barbarians. Your prejudice against the military is obviously the result of brainwashing by leftwing moonbats.
C~G
Untouchable
- Joined
- May 24, 2006
- Messages
- 4,146
Not sure about the former, but from my personal experience regarding all the profession having to do with security (including army) the latter is painfully true and in unfortunate cases it brings these natural instincts to the surface also. Even though they are directed for to be used by the system itself and not against it as few mavericks really survive in place like army in the long run.bigfatron said:
The main reason why I go against military personnel only able to vote is that it does have that herd mentality seeded into all the inviduals it takes under it's shelter. That's it's mission.
The outlines of nation Heinlein wrote about are militaristic and we could say fascist as even though in one part celebrates democracy it also promotes system that isn't democractic but based into blind obedience. Such is life of professional soldier and it's strange that person who is or has been part of military could deny it somehow.
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
That is a false stigma. No one hates going to war more than a soldier, because a soldier understands the ramifications of war more intimately than anyone else.
Just so you know, we have journalists that serve in the military as well.
Ziggy said:
No, he gets to vote because he is a military veteran. No one said you had to 'stay' in the military...just serve.
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
ROFL. Proof please. You also seem to forget that some of the brightest minds around also serve in the military. Annapolis, Westpoint and the Air Force academy arent known for churning out knuckleheads you know.
Your assumption is just plain ridiculous. The majority of recruits we get these days are not 'less intelligent/more violent' at all....most are 2nd or 3rd year college students looking to pay for the rest of their education. Most certainly not the demograph you assume applies.
C~G
Untouchable
- Joined
- May 24, 2006
- Messages
- 4,146
That is the exact thought I have in my mind at first and partly it's true when considering inviduals but unfortunately this doesn't seem to be the case in general.
And this doesn't even address the issue that society that is concentrated fully into warfare (as it becomes part of requirements of being part of demoractic process) will probably need a war to go into in order to keep things rolling. Including economy of course.
Thus it probably would create more likely conflicts than society which isn't based into such warrior cult.
Yeah, but they report in the "right way" without demoralizing the morale of the people or the troops.
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
Proof please? Having been in the military for 20 years, my experience is most soldiers would much rather earn their paycheck without risking their life to do so.
False assumption. Countries maintain militaries and dont have to go to war in the very least. Many countries even have mandatory military service and they dont have to be at war constantly to justify this.
Why? Again, I dont think you understand or comprehend the military mindset. People dont sign up in the army to die in foreign lands and be separated from their families. I just dont see it they way you do based largely upon my experiences.
C~G
Untouchable
- Joined
- May 24, 2006
- Messages
- 4,146
Personal experience isn't a proof.
But...
BTW do you support the war on Iraq?
Dang! There goes your proof.
And it was started as pre-emptive strike and aggression towards country that wasn't threat at that time unless you believe the information given by the administration that relied into military information.
There's something wrong with this picture, wonder what that is?
False?
Nope.
If the economy and democractic process of country would run based into that all people enter military service it will have consequences. Whole families would join the military and it's entirely different thing compared to mandatory military service for the men of the particular country.
Secondly military service does raise the militarism of the country but the aggression level will depend of it's power and possible succession rate in such conflicts it could enter. Example with Finland we have military tradition but we're peaceful as we don't stand chance to attack anyone. Superpower like old Soviet Union would be entirely different case.
This is just exactly why they can vote for the war since they are lead to believe it's them that won't die or get injury in the war. That's the primary illusion of volunteered service as in US. But that does happen and then starts the complaining and the dropping of country's morale. Which you also complain about. The roots are in the propaganda that your country will prevail and you will survive. This is how certain parts of youth during last century was fed in Europe and results were disastrous.
But let's turn the table here and what would be the reason to allow only military personnel could vote, what would it achieve compared to the current system, high ideals and patriotism maybe?
And proof of it working?
Let me guess your personal experience how intelligent, peaceloving and patriotic the military personnel are compared to pure civilians that are lucky to have their democracy but don't understand to give thanks to you every second of the day?
EDIT: I try to create new thread for this topic as soon as I can contact moderator to move all this into that new thread.
C~G
Untouchable
- Joined
- May 24, 2006
- Messages
- 4,146
I like Robert Heinlein as writer and some of his quotes are magnificent.
But he also introduced ideas that maybe weren't thought really through in his book Starship Troopers.
Which is also considered to have a militaristic and fascist model for govenment. (Now the Godwin is out of our back.)
In Bias in the Media redux -thread
Happened to rise this idea:
The book’s idea:
What do you think of this idea, what would be the pros and cons of it and would you support it?
Discuss.
(Thanks for the moderators for their work.)
But he also introduced ideas that maybe weren't thought really through in his book Starship Troopers.
Which is also considered to have a militaristic and fascist model for govenment. (Now the Godwin is out of our back.)
In Bias in the Media redux -thread
Happened to rise this idea:
MobBoss said:
The book’s idea:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starship_TroopersWiki said:
What do you think of this idea, what would be the pros and cons of it and would you support it?
Discuss.
(Thanks for the moderators for their work.
)
