S-06 Guerrillas in the Mist

Well having come up with (in my opinion) a hilarious title for this SG, it turns out I was scooped 15 years ago by a rap group. Nevermind.

Anyway, this game will not involve monkeys, bananas or anything else apelike currently popular at CFC.

Celts, Brennus
Highlands map, standard size, ridgelines, standard number of opponents
Classical Start
Epic Speed
Emperor difficulty
Always war, no tech trading, no barbs

Well, probably emperor. There has been rumour that AWE is impossible, and maybe that rumour is right. But I played a similar game on monarch and it was OK, so I'd like to try emp at least. It's all about making some chokes in the ridgelines, good scouting, and the guerilla promotions. No particular reason for classical start, just wanted to try it.

No variant rules, but duns and guerrilla 3 gallic warriors are encouraged!

The team is

sooooo
mike p
blid
ThERat
Compromise

So I'll probably make a start tomorrow. Sign in, etc. Those settings are not set in stone, so if there are objections then we can discuss them.

With a classical start we start with 1 archer, 1 settler, 1 worker and 1 scout. We have all the worker techs except iron working. We have writing but not mathematics or alphabet. Along the religious branch we have up to and including priesthood and monotheism. The first 3 religions are dished out randomly on turn 7.

Unless there are objections, then I think we should use my AW No War Weariness mod, which I have attached to this post.

Compromise checking in.

I think the No War Weariness Mod is a good idea.

I have limited experience with non-Ancient starts, but I seem to recall (and maybe even have experienced) that the human always gets one of Bud/Hind/Judaism.

Any links to similar AW SGs that I should be familiar with?

Checking in.

Classic start is a good idea. I figured you went with that just in case we got plopped down next to an AI right away. Starting with just one scout would make for a pretty quick game if Mansa shows up on our doorstep with a few Skirmishers.

I'd probably favor a high sea level too, since it cuts down on the land slightly, we can probably use oceans better than the AI, and having a sea or large enough lake could help us create chokepoints to deal with the inevitable dogpile.

I take it the mod just eliminates WW and has no other effects?

Lurking mode on...

This should be a interesting read even as this is way beyond my skills. I haven't even played emperor yet!

Checkin' in. I first thought you were mad, before seeing the no tech trading option. Now I think you are just crazy. The only AW game I played was epic 9 (horse feathers) on prince difficulty. Let's see how this one goes

WW on AW games is just stupid concept. I agree with using the mod, which by the way should have been added as an option in CIV

checking in....

what does the AI get for a classical start? It's important that we know how many settlers etc they start with.

We could use a opression strategy for at least one or two Civs. Simply send an archer there and make sure they park their workers inside their cities. This will help slowing the AI. We should also make sure that nearby opponents do not connect metals or horses.

We ourselves better find copper or iron fast for survival. Later we need to find choke points for easy defense. You could rad up some old AW games for some advise. Our AW games on hub maps could give some hints. We also played as Rome and won AWE.

WW on AW games is just stupid concept. I agree with using the mod, which by the way should have been added as an option in CIV

Click to expand...

That was the first thing the grumpy old men brought up, but I have to say, that Sirian's response at that time wasn't very positive...

just for the fun of it, I went back to read up on the SG game when the discussion got a little heated up about WW and other issues...

heated discussion

Looks like each AI starts with 3 Archers, 2 Scouts, 2 Workers, and 1 Settler.

Thankfully, our UU can built with bronze, and we'll be able to see copper from the start.

I started three different games just to get a feel. Each time we were given Judaism several turns in. A lot will depend on taking advantage of favorable topography.

On a Highlands map, we could go a long time before we contact some of the AI. Perhaps we shouldn't explore too much in the hopes that distant AI war with each other before we find them and declare.

Techwise, I suggest we start with Mathematics if copper is near, since it gives a chopping bonus, and we'll likely need to chop like mad at the start. Construction will also be useful once the AI find us and start sending stacks our way. If there is no copper near, then we should probably go for Iron Working.

Feudalism should probably be a short term goal. Guerrilla first strike longbowman will be huge for us if we can position them properly.

Well you can put me in the AWE is (close to) impossible basket, so I'll be lurking this one with interest.

Actually, highlands map might be the trick. Isolated start and (hopefully for you guys) plenty of choke points could be all right for surviving but then you've still got to win

Well the first start I rolled was a guaranteed turn 2 loss! (Will load screenshot later, it's quite funny). Second one was on the edge of the map in the dessert - no thanks. Third one looks OK. Do not have access to a screenshot right now but it has some food, some hills, grassland and horses. A few tiles of tundra in the north (one is silver) so we're on the edge of the tundra region but I think I will go with it. Can't spend all day rolling starts!

I did not realise that our gallic warriors only require copper, not iron, so that's good. I like mike's idea of starting with mathematics for better chopping. I was planning on building a scout until size 2, then a second worker to chop while the other one improves the food tiles. Any opinions on that?

Feudalism sounds a good later target too. Not only longbows, but the serfdom civic which is really useful on this map and being spiritual we can flip between it and slavery without hindrance.

why would we want a second scout? At emperor the huts don't give that much nice stuff and we would want to avoid too many contacts early on. There are no barbs for fog busting....

ThERat said:

we would want to avoid too many contacts early on.

Click to expand...

Is this really the case? We will meet our near neighbours soon anyway. But if we meet the far away AIs, then we put them into "war mode" so they build troops instead of libraries. This is probably good for us, right? Since they are so far away their troops will not pose a threat (if they can even find a route to us) and we stunt their economic development.

why would we want a second scout? At emperor the huts don't give that much nice stuff

Click to expand...

Not sure, what do others think? We could just chop out a second worker straight away. My reason for a scout first was to quickly discover the choke points in our surrounding terrain, and chose the strategic points for future cities. In this game, we can't just put cities near to nice resources. We have to put them where we can defend them. So near a ridgeline passage, or near the boundaries of lakes, or a position with a choke point nearby anyway.

First (suicidal) start I rolled was this one. Confirmation of the AI's starting units.



The first viable start is this one. Large lakes were selected. No WW mod installed. I moved the scout and archer. Tundra forest deer isn't bad, it's a 4/1/0 tile. Some grass to cottage and forests to chop.

start looks ok.

I know that the AI will sooner or later find us. I just thought 1 scout is more than sufficient. I rather we chop out a worker and then more defenders

Lurker's comment :

I'm experimenting with Emperor level (+ raging barbarians) lately.
All AIs start with a scout + extra archer, especially the free scout is rather unfun.
Even at huge maps almost no goody huts are left for the human player.
Another problem will be the lack of units and unit upkeep. If you can't hurt the AIs infrastructure
(50% worker rate IIRC), then this game won't be long.

Highlands often has huts to pop because AI does not scout as well as we can. I think they get a bit lost in the hills (bless 'em) and cannot pathfind so well.

If we are going to go with another unit for scouting, it should probably be an archer or a chariot once the horses are hooked up. At least they'll have a fighting chance to survive contact with the enemy. And an archer with Guerrilla II promotions will move around fairly quickly on this map, I'd think.

Also, Mathematics unlocks fort building. I think I read somewhere that forts no longer require clearing the underlying forest and allow for City Garrison promotions to function. Could this succession game be the first game of Civ 4 ever where forts become critical? I'll have to try that out.

Cottaging is a nice idea, but I don't like it for our first city. Cottages should only go up in our hinterlands, where we know the AI won't be able to overrun. Our front line cities should probably go specialist economy, since they will probably be pillaged at various times.

Maths looks fine

I think that the scout won't last long. Agree with mike on waiting to get a military unit scout for us

I'd like a chariot to scout for us. Meeting AIs and sending them to war mode sounds good to me.

(The way that might backfire is if the AIs might declare on each other before we meet them, but on a Highlands map, I don't think that's possible since it would take too long for the AIs to develop enough hatred toward each other.)

Math sounds good for a first tech.

The worker could conceivably move W-NW just to make sure there's no copper up there, but the starting spot seems hard to beat.

Maybe archer till size 2, then worker, then get a chariot out to meet/harass the AI?

How do you feel about signs on the map?

OK, I take into account the responses and decide on this: Start with worker, use one chop for him. Then build an archer.



I settle in place. It reveals an irrigated corn! Incredible, I don't think I've seen 5 resources in a row this this before. But highlands does not exactly throw out your typical start position. I've seen starts where the only food is a banana, and starts full with peaks and desert hills. Highlands map generally have a region of tundra in the north or south of the map. It is clear that in our case this region is in the north and we are on the edge of it. So I will scout south, because it is likely there are no civs directly north of us and the south will have better sites for future cities.

Most importantly, I rename our scout to Diane Fossey.

Early on we found copper to our west, with food to support a city too!

On turn 7 we found judaism. Surely that's a bug that the human always founds judaism?



Not sure how many turns to open with on a classical start - I went for 25. The west:



And the south:



Worker actions: I started by chopping the forest on the plains hill 1E of the city. Then I pastured the sheep. At this time our other worker completed. One of them farmed the corn, the other pastured the horses and roaded them. That's where we are now. I did not road the sheep or corn yet in the interests of faster growth. IMO we should mine and hook up the silver next with the help of both warriors to get our research going and raise the happy cap.

I revolted to Judaism but did not change civics. If we start a building the we should revolt to slavery+org religion first (remember this!).

IMO our first city should claim copper. A true choke city would be 1W of the copper, but would allow pillaging of our food. But it does not have any defensive terrain in the plains to the west of it. 1N of the deer is also a possiblilty, but has the disadvantage of needing a border pop before we can mine the copper. Finally there is 1E of the copper, using the already farmed corn for its food. A true choke, but the "wrong" side of the copper to protect it. But it's an interesting spot to consider. Thoughts on this?

Save

sooooo
mike p - UP!
blid - On Deck
ThERat
Compromise

Good opening. I like 1W of Copper or 1N of Deer. I'd leave that decision to those with more AW experience than me.

We are Spiritual right? So can switch to Slavery and Org Rel any time. Sooner means we won't forget before building anything.

I agree with working a silver mine asap.

Edit: Where did you meet Ragnar?