Kill the longbow?

Should we immediately send the available full-strength keshik to kill the longbow outside Berlin?

Yes
No
Abstain

This poll will be open 3 days or until the next play session, whichever comes first.

Link to discussion thread.

Yes! and if there is a failure in this attack send the weakened keshik after the longbowman as well, after using his promotion of course.

I agree, but I will leave it to my implementation to do so., I also interpret this order as within the next turnchat, and I also interpret it as within the parameters of this poll to send a security screen to protect the keshik for the counter-attack.

Immediately means immediately.

Well, then I see it as legitimate to add a security screen to protect said Keshik

Any tactical move which results in the longbow's death prior to the current EOT is acceptable. Any move which allows the longbow a path to the city at EOT is not acceptable. A poll's originator is free to issue binding instructions which implement the poll's result, and such instructions would overrule any other instructions on the same subject.

Constitution said:

In the event that two or more such delegations of the Power of the People are in conflict, the following hierarchy shall determine which decision has precedence.

1. An initiative has force of law and supercedes any other decision type, including an earlier initiative on the same subject.

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It is always preferable to allow an official to implement the people's will voluntarily. I have no desire to create conflict, just to protect the rights of the citizens to set policy that officials must follow.

As long as your Keshik goes from A to B, it is all good. This does not mean you can expand that decision beyond this poll. And why this level of aggression against me, when there is so much to handle in our nation, I can see numerous polls that should be made solving much larger issues, that have not been set into motion.

Nevertheless, I will send the security screen to protect the same Keshik, following the assault.

Provolution said:

As long as your Keshik goes from A to B, it is all good. This does not mean you can expand that decision beyond this poll. And why this level of aggression against me, when there is so much to handle in our nation, I can see numerous polls that should be made solving much larger issues, that have not been set into motion.

Nevertheless, I will send the security screen to protect the same Keshik, following the assault.

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The people's rights would be asserted against anyone who acted the same way. Nothing personal is intended. I wouldn't even have noticed the problem, if there hadn't been several exchanges in the discussion thread which showed that citizen concerns were being dismissed without even the courtesy of a direct reply on what the plan actually was.

And I agree it's rather lethargic right now. My RL has been intruding a lot, so I haven't been available to drive anything myself. Thanks for trying to get things started, just up the civility level a bit please.

About those citizens "inputs" on that sudden, lethargic stack to attack the city unhealed next turn, that is not something I take very seriously. This poll was frankly not needed, and the plan I devised will handle the elephant and the longbowman at once. Will of the people is something we need to take on a case by case level.

DaveShack said:

A poll's originator is free to issue binding instructions which implement the poll's result, and such instructions would overrule any other instructions on the same subject.

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Yeah, if you're a mod you can get away with that. Since when can a poll's originator issue binding instructions? You all have a rule that says that now?

donsig said:

Yeah, if you're a mod you can get away with that. Since when can a poll's originator issue binding instructions? You all have a rule that says that now?

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I'm acting as a citizen.

As for citizens instructing on the results of polls, we've been doing it all along -- if no official gets to it first. Whether there is a law would be a question for the judiciary, though it would be a bad idea to ask that question if you do want citizens to post instructons on poll results.

I think Donsig is hitting a key point here. We cannot have citizens polls hijacking election results, or we would get anarchy here. I know you are a mod, and a citizen, Dave, but those two things are sometimes easy to fuse.

Let me post the instructions, I will see to the death of that longbowman, but we should abide by the core of the constitution, and let leaders post the instructions for the turnchat. Otherwise, it may be tempting to do the same in several other fields. If someone does not like a leader, better not elect or reelect the leader. But aggressive over-ruling like this, is not going to serve interest in the demogame, either way.

Dave, you do not want to be the Robespierre of the Demogame, we know that.

DaveShack said:

As for citizens instructing on the results of polls, we've been doing it all along -- if no official gets to it first. Whether there is a law would be a question for the judiciary, though it would be a bad idea to ask that question if you do want citizens to post instructons on poll results.

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Why would it be bad? Do you expect the judiciary would rule against the practice because it is against the rules of this particular demogame?

Article C of the constitution (which I can't copy because of the fancy formatting) it is stated that a citizens initiative (poll) is the highest form of decision making, and over-rules even the power of an elected official.

It also states that elected officials derive their power from the will of the citizens.

From this I think it is clear that the citizens may post a poll about any game issue, and that the official will then have to comply with the results of that poll or be in violation of the constitution and the will of the people.

I could easily see a citizen who does not approve in the least of an official posting a draft of turnchat instructions with the poll question should our (office name here) post these instructions for the next turnchat? If the result of the vote was a yes then the official would be required to post those instructions. However that would be a very aggressive move by a citizen, they might be better of just staging a coup.

There is a long precedent of smaller issues being polled by citizens before turnchats and the results of the poll being referenced in the relevant official's turnchat instructions. This issue is a small one which I think Daveshack made a very smart move on in perfect accordance with standing laws and procedures.

To a point yes, as the interpretation of the poll is not leveraged beyond the parameters of the poll itself. This is only about the healthy Keshik attacking the longbow, end of story. Not anything more, as Dave suggested.

Any tactical move which results in the longbow's death prior to the current EOT is acceptable. Any move which allows the longbow a path to the city at EOT is not acceptable. A poll's originator is free to issue binding instructions which implement the poll's result, and such instructions would overrule any other instructions on the same subject.

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It doesn't seem he was suggesting that, here he says that any move that kills the longbowman before the end of the first turn is ok. I think there was simply a misunderstanding between you two. Clearly attacking the longbowman and including a screen is one way to follow the results of this poll. I can't speak for dave or you, but I think he misunderstood you and believed you would only put forward the screen, while you might have misinterpreted him believing he meant that anything in addition to the attack on the longbowman was illegal.

However I'm not either of you I could have that totally wrong.

Some players refused me to split the stack. I decided on the foodplain spot in order to shelter the keshik, just observe older posts, and you will clearly understand. But the same choir insisted on keeping it in one stack. "Keep it simple", was the catchphrase, in the best tradition of Pol Pot.

It was clearly stated I was to kill the longbowman with the keshik, and the screen with those two relevant axemen, cavalry and archery attack promotions. Others argued vehemently for the grand singular wounded stack to run a heroic charge against the ramparts the very next turn.

The other Keshik has only 1 out of 6 health left, and I am NOT utilizing that unit for the same attack. That unit is to be healed back to full strength.

The polls originator is only free to issue binding instructions as specified in the poll, not vividly imaginatively invent further "binding instructions". Any hardcore bureaucratic pseudo-legal wording does not change that, since that is the law, and that is the nature of the poll.

If the other 1.0 health Keshik is to charge as well, I want to see a separate poll for that as well. I can fully say that

In sum, one healthy Keshik will attack the longbowman (already altered promotion to fit the mission, amphibious crossing), and the surviving keshik to be protected by specified axemen (anti bow and anti cavalry promotions).

No other unit can reach the longbow this first turn. The poll subsides and ends by the end of the first turn, and cease to exist as a binding poll after being emptied in that first round.

I know I said I wouldn't comment any further on this issue, but ...

Provolution said:

But the same choir insisted on keeping it in one stack. "Keep it simple", was the catchphrase, in the best tradition of Pol Pot.

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As I'm the one that argued to "keep it simple" and I can quite assure you that I never said one single word about not breaking up the stack. I, and several others, urged you to take out the LB before it reached Berlin. You refused to do that until DaveShack posted this poll.

And now you would liken me to a mass-murdering dictator?!?!?! This after refering to my comments as nothing but Soviet propaganda? Frankly, I've had enough! I enjoy talking about a game of Civ. But I do not enjoy your name-calling or all of your snide remarks.

Provolution said:

The polls originator is only free to issue binding instructions as specified in the poll, not vividly imaginatively invent further "binding instructions". Any hardcore bureaucratic pseudo-legal wording does not change that, since that is the law, and that is the nature of the poll.

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Now that isn't exactly what happened, is it? This all started because you said you weren't going to do it immediately as stated in the poll. Daveshack then pointed out to you that you didn't have a choice. He didn't "imaginatively invent" anything! Go back and read it for yourself (posts 3 and 4 above).

I must admit that I'm no expert on history, and don't know exactly what Provolution means by all these references to historic figures. However, I do know attempts at flaming / trolling when I see them.

Moderator Action: The personal attacks stop here.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

I did not want to kill the longbow the first turn, necessarily, I admit that.
However, testing proved that I could make him move away, simply by moving forces in between, then I could attack him with the Keshik with no river crossing and no elephant counter, on the other side of the river. I tested this extensively in a separate game I set up.

For the second stack, I did not really get any support for it. People did not want me to complicate things, yet, separate voices wanted to take out the longbow, but gave no option for taking out the keshik in a counter.

Yes, it was not that simple, as it seemed. Since I am now pressed to use the keshik across the river, in place of delaying the longbow kill one turn, I had to adopt another strategy. I now promotes the Keshik with Amphibious trait, and wait for city spears and the elephant to counter. Only option there is the Axeman with archery and cavalry bonus.

So, I sort of managed to delay the assault until healed, but failed to delay the pursuit of the longbow one single turn. This longbow would not move into the city with the plan originally laid out. And no one really cared about the elephant (someone wanted to sacrifice 2-3 axemen, axemen with 3-4 promotions).