ALC Game 17 Pre-Game Thread

Sisiutil

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All Leaders Challenge Pre-Game Show:
Game #17 - Russia/Peter

PeterSM.jpg


In the next ALC game, I'll be playing as Peter the Great, leader of Russia. The purpose of this thread is to discuss, before the game, how to best exploit that particular leader's characteristics, which is the main feature and purpose of the ALC series. Just so we're clear, I'm playing with the Warlords expansion pack and the difficulty level will be Monarch. The speed is Epic, the map is Fractal. Here's the fact sheet:

Traits: Expansive (+2 health per city, double production speed of Worker, Granary, and Harbour) and Philosophical (Great People birth rate increased 100 percent, double production speed of University.)
Starting Techs: Mining and Hunting
Unique Unit: Cossack (Replaces Cavalry; Strength: 15, Movement: 2, Cost: 120; Unique Characteristics: +50% vs. Mounted Units)
Unique Building: Research Institute (Replaces Laboratory; Cost: 250; Requires: Computers and an Observatory; Unique Characteristics: +2 free scientists)

Peter is Russia's wallflower in Civ IV. When anyone talks about the Russian leaders in the game, it's almost always to sing the praises of sexy Catherine, or, more recently, to give credit to beefy Stalin. Peter is almost never mentioned as a favourite leader in the game--in fact, I get the distinct impression that people rarely play as him. Which seems strange, because he's no slouch. It's probably just because if you select Russia as your civ, the next thing you see is Catherine with those big brown eyes, enticing you with her animated feminine wiles. What computer gaming geek could possibly resist her? Peter just can't compete, no matter how much thoughtful moustache-twirling he does.

All the more reason to make him the subject of an ALC game! :goodjob:

Perhaps the reason for Peter's lack of popularity is that most of his unique characteristics don't bear fruit until late in the game. Take the Expansive trait, for example. With the additional health from not only the trait's bonus but also from the cheap buildings (with the right resources), Peter can have very large cities. However, health isn't a factor for cities until late in the game; before then, it's happiness that's the issue, and Peter has no special abilities there.

However, we can't dismiss Expansive's early-game capabilities too easily. As we saw way back in the Victoria game (played with vanilla Civ IV, where she had the expansive trait as well), the main early advantage of Expansive is the cheap granaries combine with the slavery civic. Having the granaries in place early allows you to whip other things and regain the sacrificed population much soon. Pottery will be an early tech target, as usual.

Expansive also gained another early-game advantage recently, with the cheap Workers. As with Imperialistic's cheap Settlers, though, this benefit only kicks in from hammers, not food. Fortunately, Peter starts with Mining (making Bronze Working a logical first research target), so we should be able to get some hammer-yielding mines going pretty quickly.

Speaking of what to do at the start, I almost always build a Scout first if I have Hunting. I find in those games I usually manage to claim more goody huts than my rivals. The main disadvantage is the inability to steal Workers. Let's also cross our fingers and hope for some campable resources nearby.

Philosophical is one of my favourite traits for that wonderful GP generation bonus. Would it make sense to try running a Specialist Economy again, to refine it even further after its use in the Cyrus game? Education also becomes attractive for the cheap universities (not to mention the Liberalism race), and the GP generation should help in providing a Great Scientist who can lightbulb most of that technology. My favourite wonder, the Great Library, is very attractive for its GS-generating benefits; hopefully we'll have a source of marble nearby, or at least a lot of forests to chop.

Cossacks, the unique unit, were nerfed recently but are still powerful. Getting Nationalism as the free tech from Liberalism would make the most sense, then Gunpowder and Military Tradition. If I can get Cossacks before anyone else, I should be in for a fun mid-game romp. It might also be a good idea to get some early game mounted units some XPs so they can be upgraded later.

The unique building, the Research Institute, comes awfully late and won't be much help unless we wind up going for a space race win. It does have a nice synergy with its benefit (the 2 free scientists), since the RI multiplies the scientists' additional research points in turn. If I'm going after a domination or diplomatic win, however, it may have limited utility.

One more thing: in partial preparation for the Beyond the Sword expansion pack--due out later this month--and just to be a little bit different, I'll be playing this game using the very popular Better AI mod, available HERE. I'm playing all of my off-line games with this mod now, and I get the impression many other people are as well--a better AI has always been number one on most Civ fanatics' wish lists since the very first version of the game. BtS will include it, so it seemed like a good chance to ramp up to the expansion pack without going up a level--especially since most players anticipate staying at their current level or even dropping back one for their first few games with the expansion pack, as many of us did with Warlords.

One of the main things I've noticed with the Better AI is that the opposing Civs build a lot more units and mass them in its cities closest to your borders rather than housing them in a central, useless location like the capital. The Better AI also seems to tech better and be much more demanding in its tech trades. City placement is also noticeably better. If anyone has any other insights into what to expect from the Better AI, please share them.
 
Exp/Phil definitely screams for an SE. I'm also interested to see how the Better AI mod plays differently -- does the AI know how to conduct naval invasions now?

Also, this being your last ALC on Warlords, have you given thought to trying a different type of map? I'm still holding out for Arch/Snaky Continents -- it's not that different from Fractal, except the landmasses are slightly smaller and you have a much higher chance of an isolated start. You're also guaranteed to start on the coast.
 
Certainly looks like early SE and maybe head towards MT via liberalism. On the other hand you could go for an early spaceship making use of RI which might be more interesting and challenging than beeline cossacks and wipe out the opposition. The deciding factor could well be the size of your starting landmass.
 
Certainly looks like early SE and maybe head towards MT via liberalism. On the other hand you could go for an early spaceship making use of RI which might be more interesting and challenging than beeline cossacks and wipe out the opposition. The deciding factor could well be the size of your starting landmass.

If he manages to take enough territory before Liberalism it would be really interesting to see a Computers beeline, although it would obsolete the Great Library much earlier than usual. However I think the gain is well worth it in these case. I've never tried something like this, but it could be interesting to do with Peter. With Education (cheap Univs), Astronomy (Observatories) & Computers (RIs) you will probably tech like mad through the later part of the tech tree even with a smaller territory than a whole continent. Heck, I even won a Space Race on Emperor with half a continent (took out one civ), although I scored a huge number of wonders in that game. (played with Bismarck)
 
If he manages to take enough territory before Liberalism it would be really interesting to see a Computers beeline, although it would obsolete the Great Library much earlier than usual. However I think the gain is well worth it in these case. I've never tried something like this, but it could be interesting to do with Peter. With Education (cheap Univs), Astronomy (Observatories) & Computers (RIs) you will probably tech like mad through the later part of the tech tree even with a smaller territory than a whole continent. Heck, I even won a Space Race on Emperor with half a continent (took out one civ), although I scored a huge number of wonders in that game. (played with Bismarck)

I would say use Cossacks (even beeline) to make sure you get enough land for the space race.
 
Since you said you didn't do to well with the SE in the previous game, this would be an excellent chance to give it another try. Peter should be more suited for it than Cyrus. Full out SE with the pyramids, if possible, would be nice to see.

Haven't tried the Better AI mod. Smart AI sounds scary, but I guess you have to get used of it for BtS =(
 
I would say use Cossacks (even beeline) to make sure you get enough land for the space race.

Hmm, yeah, this might be a problem, leveraging the UU and the UB, as Sisiutil already said in his first post. However of all the Russian leaders I'd probably play Peter the least aggressive post Liberalism. It's just too beautiful to pop out Great Scientists and bulb down the Paper -> Education & Printing Press -> Sci Meth -> Physics -> Computers lines! Darn it, I'll have to play a game with Peter just to do this. :D
 
Perhaps the reason for Peter's lack of popularity is that most of his unique characteristics don't bear fruit until late in the game. Take the Expansive trait, for example. With the additional health from not only the trait's bonus but also from the cheap buildings (with the right resources), Peter can have very large cities. However, health isn't a factor for cities until late in the game; before then, it's happiness that's the issue, and Peter has no special abilities there.

Apothecary: I didn't find this UB to be nearly as big a benefit as the Persian UU. Health doesn't become an issue for most cities until very late in the game. If I'd had a city with, say, 6-8 flood plains, it would have been a benefit much earlier, but I didn't, and even then that's only one city. The fact that I ran a specialist economy where commerce multipliers like the Apothecary were mostly unnecessary also limited its effectiveness.

I presume Welnic (or another 3rd party individual) will be inspecting and choosing our map from a few random seeds again.

If this is the case, then I encourage that map to be chosen based on ...
  • ... the amount of Flood Plains in the capital city (with an emphasis on more)
  • ... the ratio of :health: : :) resources (with an emphasis on less :health: resources overall)
  • ... the ratio of land : seafood resources (with an emphasis on a greater amount of seafood resources)
  • ... the proximity to water (with an emphasis on more water .. possibly even a continents/terra map)

Perhaps this weights and directs the game, but each of these factors plays a direct role in determining the usefulness of Peter's UB and traits.


Oh yeah, and beeline Cavalry since this is the last ALC you'll be able to do it in, thanks to BtS changes.


-- my 2 :commerce:
 
don't need any fancy pyramids. Early game should be taking full advantage of one of his trait expansive by growing/expanding. I really really don't like that you are planing to NOT go worker first with peter as expansive allow those cheap workers to come out so much faster. Of course if you go BW first(admittedly only with some wierd start). You can justify going scout(please please micromanage so the city grow then complete the scout the turn after(or a bit different but same essence on epic ofc...)) then whipping the worker(doing most calcs for normal speed since that is what i am used to just *1.5 for epic) investing 15 hammers so you can get full use out of the expansive bonus 8 turns to grow 1 scout 1 anarchy 3 turns worker then whip gives 14 turns for worker compared to 12 or 10(with forested plains hill) for the first worker. Basically spent 1 turn on the scout 1 turn on anarchy and the normal 12 on the worker, you also get overflow. The math might work out a bit better on epic of course. As an expansive leader i would very much want to showcase the greatest strength of the trait and you cant actually do that if you don't go worker first(or the whip variant, although it is a bit slower).
 
Cossacks have strength 15.

Are you also going to use the BetterAI Handicaps? It reduces the bonuses the AI normally gets to compensate for the AI being smarter, which is also like BTS. From the readme:

Release Name: BetterAI Handicaps 1.0


Notes:
New Handicaps for Better AI for increased fairness and a difficult gradient closer to original CIV.

Changes:
AI combat bonus against Animals reduced from 70% to 40% on all levels.
AI combat bonus against barbs reduced from 40% to 25% on all levels.

AI pays 50% for unit upgrades on all levels (vs decreasing to 5% at Deity)
AI pays 50% for unit supply on all levels (vs decreasing to 10% at Deity).
AI pays 80% inflation on all levels (vs decreasing to 20% at Deity)
War Weariness increased (on Deity now 50% War Weariness instead of 20%).
Growth bonuses reduced (on Deity requires 80% to grow instead of 60%).

Prince: Free explore unit removed.
Monarch: Free worker removed.
Emperor: Free worker removed.
Immortal: One less free worker.
Deity: One less free worker.
 
I really really don't like that you are planing to NOT go worker first with peter

It's all really map dependent. But I've been using the scout first build and it really helps to get a lay of the land. Even if we had the optimal worker first start with a forested plains hill in the first 8 tiles, I'd still be tempted to build the scout first while working the hill and then go on to the worker.
 
why not just play with balanced resources setting, so there is no need to debate whether someone should be checking the map?
 
I don't see any need to have the map checked, except maybe to avoid an isolated start. Cyrus was special in that access to Horses was necessay to utilize early UU. I don't think there's any essential resource without which Peter just isn't Peter.
 
Peter the pumpkin eater. Liberalism race for Nationalism is a very good strategy with this guy if you can snag the Great Library. Make that wonder a priority and the scientists will come fast and furious. You should be able to bulb your way to Liberalism long before anyone else gets it.
 
I don't see any need to have the map checked, except maybe to avoid an isolated start. Cyrus was special in that access to Horses was necessay to utilize early UU. I don't think there's any essential resource without which Peter just isn't Peter.
I'm thinking of not having Welnic check the map at all this time, even to avoid an isolated start. I'm willing to give it a go again if that's the hand the fractal map deals me. Since, as I said, most of Peter's advantages show up in the late game, an isolated start wouldn't prevent me from highlighting his characteristics.

Cossacks have strength 15.

Are you also going to use the BetterAI Handicaps? It reduces the bonuses the AI normally gets to compensate for the AI being smarter, which is also like BTS. From the readme:
Fixed; ah, for the heady days of vanilla Civ IV, when the mighty Cossacks had strength 18...

And yes, thank you for reminding me that my version of Better AI also has the previous advantages removed, much like BtS. Again, this game should provide everyone with a bit of a preview of what BtS will be like, without all the distractions of the new game features.

Certainly looks like early SE and maybe head towards MT via liberalism. On the other hand you could go for an early spaceship making use of RI which might be more interesting and challenging than beeline cossacks and wipe out the opposition. The deciding factor could well be the size of your starting landmass.

Yeah, I'm thinking of giving the SE a go again. Going after the Pyramids with a non-industrious leader depends very much on the presence of stone.
 
Seeing as you didn't respond to my post i take it you are just going to totaly disregard the immense boost expansive give you in expanding and growing your cities in the early game and instead focusing on exploration as always...
 
Seeing as you didn't respond to my post i take it you are just going to totaly disregard the immense boost expansive give you in expanding and growing your cities in the early game and instead focusing on exploration as always...
Now now, don't get snippy. ;)

Building a Worker first is definitely an option; however, since I start with Hunting, I really think building a 2nd Scout first makes more sense. Unless there are campable resources in the fat cross, the Worker won't have much to do besides building a mine. I find my 2-Scout strategy with Civs that start with Hunting lets me get to more tribal villages than the opposition.

Frankly, I really think the time to start pumping out Workers is after the 1st Worker gets a mine finished and you have BW for Slavery, so you can start taking advantage of the hammer bonus for Worker production. Until then I really don't think you're going to see that much benefit from the Expansive Worker bonus, and at the expense of your vital early city growth.
 
The good thing about Cossacks is they come so late, you don't need horses right away, even if you need Astronomy to claim them. And you can get the Pyramids via a good ol' fashioned Oracle/MC slingshot -- Peter would be ideal for that.

I'm so loving the idea of a Computers beeline...the UB gives *two* free scientists?? That's like having the Great Library in every city!!

As for starting techs, worker or scout first, etc. we need to see the starting position first...hint, hint. ;)
 
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