ALC Game 17: Russia/Peter

Pre-Game Thread

Starting Position (this post, below)
Round 1: 4000 BC to 3190 BC
Round 2: 3190 BC to 1300 BC
Round 3: 1300 BC to 565 BC
Round 4: 565 BC to 245 AD

The idea of the All Leaders Challenge is that I'm going to play a game with each of the Civ IV leaders. With the help of all the posters who participate, I will attempt to make the most of the leader's unique characteristics: traits, starting techs, unit, and building. Aside from the leader, the other game settings are (mostly) kept constant for the sake of comparison. I will post the saved game files, screenshots, and status reports here as the game progresses. Everyone then has a chance to chime in with their strategy ideas, or voice their frustration (or glee) when I make a mistake.

Everyone is invited to offer opinions and advice, and to make your own attempt at playing the same game. But if you do play a "shadow game", I kindly request that you refrain from posting spoilers--i.e. any facts or even hints about the map, opponents, and so on--before I'm there myself. I'm trying to play the game as authentically as possible.

In this ALC game, I'll be playing as Peter, leader of Russia. I'm playing the game using the Warlords expansion pack (complete with the 2.08 patch). The difficulty level is Monarch, the map is Fractal , and the speed is Epic. I have not had the start checked, so this being a Fractal map, we could be isolated, on a Pangaea, continents, or some other variation.

For this game I am also playing--in preparation for the Beyond the Sword expansion pack, where it will be included--with the BetterAI mod, including the BetterAI New Handicaps. As some of you may have noticed, I have also been playing with the Civ4Alerts mod, which provides additional information in the per-turn announcements. All these mods have been added to my CustomAssets folder, which means you should be able to load the saved game even if you don't have the mod installed yourself.

Here are all of the game settings:



And here is a look at the starting position:



(By the way, I held the mouse over my score at lower right and pressed ALT to get the score breakdown at bottom left, where we can see proof that the BetterAI is indeed up and running in this game.)

The start contains a nice mix--flood plains, grassland, some hills, and cows. Moo. Not much else, though. Then again, that probably means a mix of resources hidden in the fog and hidden from view until the right tech comes along. Or so I hope.

In the pre-game thread we were talking about running a specialist economy in this game to highlight Peter's Philosophical trait. My understanding (still sketchy but getting better thanks to experience and all of your kind help) of the SE is that the capital gets cottaged to take advantage of the commerce boost from the Bureaucracy civic. As with most starts, this one would lend itself to that--or to farms if we decide to move the capital, as I did in the previous game.

We've got some coastline to the south, but we appear to be in a temperate zone. That could mean we have an isolated start (I'd expect to see tundra on the south coast if this was a continent), but it's far too early to tell for sure.

The next move should be with the Scout. One possibility is to go S then SW onto the coastal hill to see if it's worthwhile to make the capital a coastal city--that would require seafood, preferably more than one tile of it. Or he could go W then SW to see why the BetterAI is indicating that would be a better spot for the Settler. I myself don't see it, since it gives up some very valuable flood plains. I'm really thinking that it makes sense to settle in place unless something spectacular like a gold mine shows up just out of the current start's reach. And now that I just wrote it, I realize that if I'm taking a chance on gold being around, it's most likely to be east on a hill in the desert somewhere. So maybe that's where the Scout should go. Decisions, decisions.

Anyway, we should discuss the movement of the Scout next. The other item to consider is the first build. Some of you advocated Worker first to take advantage of the build bonus Expansive has for them, but I'm not convinced. I don't see a campable resource (though one could be in the fog), and working a flood plain for the +1 gold and faster city growth is very attractive at this stage of the game; remember that the Worker build bonus only comes from hammers. I think for this start a Scout for more goody hut popping makes more sense as a first build. Nevertheless, I'm always open to suggestions.

I'd send scout n-e, and depending on what that reveals to the n-e of that square, either n, n-e, or s-e for 2d move.
Good luck!

I am also for going NE instead of S with the Scout.

I doubt you need to move.
With those floodplains and the cow, an inland capital sounds better.

My understanding is that starting locations are based on placement of all resources while the blue circles are based on placement of resources that you have the tech to see. I wonder if that means a strategic resource will appear in one of the grassland tiles in the N of the fat cross if you settle-in-place.

I would scout E or SE to see what the full distribution of flood plain tiles looks like, then decide if it's worth moving the settler so that a second city can share some.

I think the discussion of first build in the pre-game thread seemed to conclude that starting with a scout (or warrior) is best. While building the scout your city can grow to size 2 then after a few turns of building a worker you can whip to finish it (getting the Expansive bonus). This may actually get the worker done a bit earlier than if you build it from the start and you'll essentially get a free scout. Of course you'll need to choose BW as your initial tech, but that's a good first choice anyway. Your worker may have to start building a mine until you can finish Agr. but it should give you a good start.

you could turn this into either an awesome commerce or GP city if you cottage or Farm the floodplains (i'd go with cottage) Scout NE

I agree with you about Scout first.
Looks like a nice start, so I think wherever you move the Scout and Settler will be just dandy.
Just to check, what version of BetterAI are you using?

Settling in place is the obvious choice. You get a freshwater bonus without "wasting" a rivered tile's commerce by settling on it. You also snag 3 hills in the outer ring.

While the floodplains could be cottaged, at that point you're not leveraging any of Peter's strengths; and there aren't many, so I like to leverage them if I draw him. That means a food/specialist-based economy from the get-go. My typical research path with Peter would be:

Bronze Working
Agriculture
The Wheel
Pottery
Writing

Early BW takes advantage of starting with Mining, and opens up early whipping. After that, Pottery gives cheap Granaries and sets you up for Writing. Agriculture is the preferred path, as farms allow for more whipping, and more specialists after Writing for an early Great Scientist. What to use the GS for depends on the surroundings.

(Note: yes I see the cows there. But again, in order to leverage Peter's traits I think it's worth it to delay AH while getting to Writing. Most production at this point is going to come from whipping; farming those flood-plains is plenty of food for that, and it gets you to Pottery besides. So I wouldn't make AH an early priority.)

Great spot for a SE. Even if you mine the two hills you can get an overflow of 8F (cows, 2 mines and 4 floodplains and 4 specialist at size 11, not bad). Specialist here we come. I don't expect other resources to show up because the only spot there could be extra resources can be next to the cow and I don't see many resources normally next to cows. I believe that the game also counts floodplains as a bit of special resources since I have had starts with 8 flood plains and nothing else (not 1 resource in my BFC)

Validator said:

My understanding is that starting locations are based on placement of all resources while the blue circles are based on placement of resources that you have the tech to see.

Click to expand...

I've always thought based on my own experience that the blue circles are based on all resources, but only what you've fog-busted. I've definitely had the blue circles move once I reveal more tiles, but I've never seen them change when I picked up a tech. This is all my experience though, no guarantees.

By the way, don't forget to edit the bullpen thread and your sig, S.

With the commerce gathered from cottaging those rivertiles and the hammers from the visible hills, this Capital will benefit greatly from Bureaucracy. Unless your scout finds something unbelivable in the next turn or two, I would settle in place.

I wouldn't delay archery, if bronze in nowhere to be found when your have researched BW, which should be among your 2 first techs.

I might go for worker->settler->archer->archer->worker, depending on early development in the game.

Could you not build a single cottage in this game unless your tile can't be irrigated in the early game without CS? and show us the true power of SE in this game (tons of GPP, large population, whipped and drafted army). unless the city u captured has mature cottages, build only farms (farm over towns if u really want to exactly demostrate the stats of SE)

for russia, expand your emipre to the size of 15-20 cities and aim for a space race victory to show the power of Research Institute, other wise it will become another cyrus game.

for the start, i think BW is not that ergent, so may be the 2nd or third tech. u should see copper or horse when the settler is about to come out but not that early. whipping are not needed so much early when u want to grow your pop to the maximum cap. i prefer Agriculture (u need it for pottery anyway,discount for AH and grow your city quickly)->AH (to see horse and hook up cow)->BW(if no horse) or wheel (if horse nearby and delay BW to the 4th or 5th tech)->myst(if 2nd city needs culture)->pottery-> writing

chariots are cheaper,mobile and help u conquer land 2 times faster for the initial expansion. u need experienced chariots for cossack later

build: scout is good initially-> worker(size 2)->warrior->settler(size 3)

No this position is not really on the temperate zone. Considering map size and pine trees its not far from tundra either north or (hopefully) south.

Checking south even if it pops sea food will most likely be just one and you d 'lose' much grassland to sea. Chances are the best location is in place and your possibly one extra resource (if at all) on the starting positions BFT is likely some ore in one of the hills. The scout could go W but you 'd only confirm what you get for settling in place as little terain would be revealed. Theres an extra flood plain barely visible thoough (SE,SE of settler) and the only proper way to include it is to settle on the east side of the flood plains(delays settling a turn) . Maybe worth it to move scout NE to the hill and check if you can spot an extra resource to the east. Settling 3*E nets 5 flood plains and quite likely no underused lakes, but no fresh water. Then again Peter is expansive.

The blue circle SW may indicate inside coast (and the possibility to make a mostly land BFC sea city) or a river rather than an extra resource. I *think* better AI changes the way blue circles are calculated. Even if a single resource is found, and requires moving 1(S/N)E thus loosing 2 or 3 flood plains (if above move pays off) and a hill probably isnt worth it. The excellent + good make this an ideal spot for city running specialists.You could always build your second city just to your west.

Probably start with a scout is better as your worker/settler will built mostly using . Start with agriculture to farm FPs, then pottery(granary) and AH(cows).

I don't think you should commit to building no cottages at all. It depends on the terrain. And if you're somewhat isolated you might not want 100% SE.

Early bronze makes sense for the whip, but I wouldn't delay AH for long as cows are by far the best tile you can work for the time being. Horses are also more common than bronze and you'll need an anti-barb unit before too long.

It depends on what else is out there in the fog, but you've been handed a pretty solid SE capital location. 3 hills plus cows make for decent production and if you farm elsewhere you've got the food to run plenty of scientists to power the economy. Thinking further down the line, every single one of those floodplains can be watermilled if you develop them in the correct order. With workshops elsewhere you'll have a state property production beast on your hands with the food surplus to run a couple of engineers too. If you're planning on a space race to highlight Peter's UB, then I'd avoid the temptation to go cottage cheese here early in the game.

If you feel the need to stick with bureaucracy and cottages for commerce multiplication, moving the capital could be an option, but isn't really necessary. You could even forego bureaucracy completely in favour of vassalage/nationalism and the military benefits they confer, but that's a long way off becoming a decision yet.

This is the kind of start I love to see. Get the grass cows online, farm one FP, and you'll have enough food to work all 3 mines at your happy cap. Use expansive to leverage this production into some cheap workers, which you can use to chop out two settlers, one for copper/horses, and one for the FP/gold city (maybe FP/fish with the coast) that I suspect lurks out there to the east. This looks like a good capital location for early warring, and I'd love to see if better AI makes the AI better at warring or not. Why don't you put it to the test.

I count 18 cottages if there are no resources in the western part of the fat cross. I would say make this your wall street/oxford city that also is able to pay a lot of maintenance for you. It's possible later in the game you could cottage over the cows to make it 19 cottages. Damn pond or you could've had 20 cottages

Only one bad tile (possibly) in your BFC and that's not worth settling in place? Seems like looking a gift Cow in the mouth, if you'll pardon the saying. Move the Scout south to see if there's two or three Sea resources handy, but otherwise this looks to be a perfect starting spot. How this game goes will likely depend more on the options for the second city; the map scripts sure seem to place a lot of Desert around nice spots like this, but maybe that's too pessimistic.

patagonia, is that really true, about Horses being more common than Bronze? Seems to be the reverse in my games, though I do play on a lot of land heavy maps.

Will that save work if you dont have the improved AI mods loaded? I'd kind of like to play along, but am not really interested in any mods at all.

All I could say is, consider whether you really want to run a specialist economy or not. Because expansive usually shouts out hereditiary rule for me, to take advantage of all that health, and you don't really need the pyramids for that. A toss up between that and representation, perhaps, but just something to think about methinks. Plus, another reason why you would want bigger cities: draft Cossacks.

If you really want to showcase everything about this leader, yes, I believe you should go for space race though. Keeps the spirit of the ALC's.

sylvanllewelyn said:

All I could say is, consider whether you really want to run a specialist economy or not. Because expansive usually shouts out hereditiary rule for me, to take advantage of all that health, and you don't really need the pyramids for that. A toss up between that and representation, perhaps, but just something to think about methinks. Plus, another reason why you would want bigger cities: draft Cossacks.

If you really want to showcase everything about this leader, yes, I believe you should go for space race though. Keeps the spirit of the ALC's.

Click to expand...

But you cant draft a mounted unit, can you?