On Peace And War

ON PEACE AND WAR

A strategy document for relations to Romans and Germans


Moderator Action: Thanks for the summary, but warning for the dig -- especially since you added it after my post below
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

• A 300 year plan for the paced conquest of the German and Roman nations (1360-1660)

• A Conspiracy to extract technologies of our losing rival nations as we heal our troops (Compass and two other techs)

• A Mighty Way to gear our nation for both aggressive and defensive wars

• A Paced approach, also allow the Mongol civilians to benefit and coexist with the concept of Total War.

• A Show of Force of the Mongol Empire, to rule this continent together like father and son, come with me, that is the only way

One Khan, One Sword and One Manifest Destiny - Ready to release his ancient hatred on the German and Roman Longbowmen

Initially, I can see that there is a support now for four main outcomes, peaceful relations to both our neighbors, conquest of Romans, conquest of Germans and conquest of both. What is certain, is that the latter option is bound to take some time, so I suggest that we use a combination of aggressive war and temporary peace agreements (needed to negotiate technology concessions and to regroup for the next attack.

If no further war is wanted, I do only need to make defensive strategies, and I guess we are already strong enough on the defense. So that base is covered. This is why this document will handle a long term (22-30 turns war) with Germany and Rome, in 3-4 stages, allowing us to make them concede techs 2-3 times.

MAP







EAU DE COLOGNE; BEEF TARTAR AND DAS BOOT (COMPASS)

I think the next attack should be directed towards Cologne and Tartar, conquer both and make a temporary peace for 10 turns, asking for Compass as peace reparations. This allows us to heal our units and regroup for the next phase in our German War. This also allows us to get a technology that would cost us dearly, and is a strategic technology we need. They got both philosophy and compass. We start to build explorers at once after this.

DORTMUND ESSEN FRANKFURT

The next phase should open with three simultaneous strikes on the three cities above.

The Northern Group, will head out of occupied Tartar, and go straight for Dortmund. The Northern Group, heading for Dortmund, will following the conquest of Dortmund organize for isolating Hamburg and Hamburgs iron from the rest of the Roman Empire.

The Center Group, will head out of occupied Cologne and go straight for Frankfurt. The Center Group, will following the conquest of Frankfurt, organize for the attack on Antium with the headquarter in our Cumae.

The Southern Group, will head out of Ainu and Equus Aurum, and jointly Cologne (troops required to fill in the ranks and do the job) towards Essen. This is a minor force that primarily will conquer Essen with non-elite troops, troops we either want dead or promoted. Survivors from the Southern Group will be used for overseas colonization in the Eastern Ocean.

If we are to earn a technology in a peace negotiation with the last German city, we can spare them for another ten turns, and then we kill them off.

ANTIUM, HAMBURG, RAVENNA

Antium will be the main focus for attack out from Cumae, whereas troops from Berlin and occupied Dortmund will head straight for Hamburg. Healthy troops not required for garrison-work in Hamburg and Antium, will forward to Ravenna and take that city. We should see if the Romans want peace, we extort another technology and heal our troops.


BATTLE OF ROME

For this battle, we only pick special troops that are just about to get a critical promotions as well as a couple of sacrificial gamebreakers allowing these troops to get close. This battle should close the Continental War, and conquer the continent.

REQUIREMENTS

Following Banking, we should research Engineering, as we need the double road-speed across the continent to make these wars fast enough and without the need to produce much more troops.

We need to build roads in the region to back up Engineering.

We should also consider a shift from Bureaucracy to Vassalage, as we change for Mercantilism upon getting banking, so we can produce only elite forces for a short period of time, until we conquer Hamburg and Antium. I know this is controversial, but it makes sense as we get promotions for new units in the time we need those promotions and we get 16 GPT free unit upkeep.
This means, only 20 turns of vassalage or so.

This is a pace of war we need, as we want to take several cities at once from several enemies, within limited time, and possibly add tech concessions as well.

At first, I read this, saw the huge size and odd terminology (EAU DE COLOGNE; BEEF TARTAR AND DAS BOOT (COMPASS) ) and got an urge to reply with "great, more of the same 'caca', may we please have a summary which fits in the quick reply window?"

I resisted that urge, and I'm glad. The debate should be interesting. My comments on the proposal will have to wait until I can look at the save, and I have time to devote serious thought.

It might still be nice to net it out to a few bullet points, for the folks who fall asleep while reading long posts.

Personally I'm in favour of peace negotiations soon, however that's not what this thread is about so I won't go into that now. If we are to continue our conquests, this is a good general strategy for how to do it, and if the war is to continue for the conquest of the entire continent then vassalage is a necessary tech, as you've pointed out the gold per turn saving is quite large, and I think that is the biggest selling point to it.

Oh, just looked at the save again, it appears that Germany has founded a new city called Stuttgart, it is north east of EA, probably means the southern column has to be a bit more substantial, as it will have to pass this city first on the way to Essen (assuming the assault comes from EA)

Thank you for good inputs so far. I will seek counsel and find the best of the citizen input we can muster for this grand strategy.

As Grant pointed out, 16 GPT per turn is a major saver, in addition to having a higher survival rate of troops. Survival rate of troops means saved money, since commercial and scientific buildings built earlier in place of cannon fodder, produce more science and commerce in the same period of time, to tell it in a simple and easily understood fashion.

I tested out the German peace agreement, and they would not give us anything yet. This means we need to take two more German cities to qualify for a peace agreement. However, it takes 10 turns for the catapults to catch up to the German War, so we are not capable of taking on the city walls of Tartar and Frankfurt just yet.

We could consider a light variation of this plan, and only go for Cologne and for Dortmund, which bpth have no walls. With this method, we can allow ourselves to slide into a two-front war, going from Cologne to Frankfurt, Essen and Tartar, and from Dortmund and Berlin into Roman Hamburg, and from Cumae towards Antium.

This is a slightly faster and slightly more costly approach, which definitely puts us on the high horse and may even require vassalage for certain.

Chichen Itza also tremendously helps us on the Roman front, with 25 & defense bonuses in Cumae, Pisae and Berlin. So we are safe on the Western Front for a long time. Though I did not like that we lost the Border Guard to the legendary Königstramper. We need more spears on the border, for sure.

Update

Grant204, your intelligence just came in, and you did great work, now we are talking team here. Stuttgart is a key find, which requires us to put on the burning fuel here, and go vassalage to snuff out Germany in two quick pulses.

Provolution said:

For the average American audience, I will give you a "film-trailer introduction", since I know several of you hate long reads.

Click to expand...

First off, is it really necessary to start your post off by insulting Americans?


It seems to me that you are proposing some pointy stick research. Am I reading your post correctly? This could be a pretty good idea, especially if it nets us Compass, as you suggest. As for Vassalage and the extra promotions, I see little value. The production and power graphs show that the war is already won.

Sorry for the mild American joke, I would not object if you made comparable European jokes I edited it now.

Yes, we plan to do pointy stick research, fight until we are a spent force for a bit, negotiate key techs to be given us

Remember that promoted units can be upgraded and used in overseas wars.
This war may be won, but the troops made now for this war, may be useful throughout the entire game. Having 40 units with one promotion more, would be great for offense and defense throughout the entire game.

Well, conquering Dortmund and Cologne would probably press the Germans to give us Compass.

Yes to pointy stick research, currently No to vassalage. Experience isn't that important, numbers count.

Numbers also count for upkeep costs and replacement costs.
I think we need more debate on the war economics here.

Provolution said:

I would not object if you made comparable European jokes

Click to expand...

I believe I'll pass.

Provolution said:

Remember that promoted units can be upgraded and used in overseas wars.
This war may be won, but the troops made now for this war, may be useful throughout the entire game. Having 40 units with one promotion more, would be great for offense and defense throughout the entire game.

Well, conquering Dortmund and Cologne would probably press the Germans to give us Compass.

Click to expand...

I personally don't think that is a valid reason to switch to Vassalage. The upgrade costs alone on 40 units would be a minimum of 4000 gold, more likely in the neighborhood of 10000 gold. Way to expensive IMHO.

And why do you need 40 more units, anyway? We could certainly use more cats. And I could see turning out a few more spears. But 40 more units?!?!?!?

This is for the entire war as I expect 3 losses on the average per city. (11 cities now)

Provolution said:

This is for the entire war as I expect 3 losses on the average per city. (11 cities now)

Click to expand...

At some point, you should be dealing a crippling blow and then you shouldn't be taking anymore losses. Personally, I think you estimates are a tad high ...

I always plan for the worst. We are already behind, with the Berlin losses at some seven units, 4 catapults, spearman, keshik and maceman.

Sure, we can expect to lose an endless stream of catapults, but maybe not others.

Yes, I think losing the catapults is better in the long term, but I do expect to win the majority of the pitched battles.

Sieges is different, look at the City Garrison 2 Longbowman in Essen, which is on a hill for example. The Germans follow more or less the same set-up, Longbowman and 2 spearman. Without iron, it is likely going to be more longbowmen.

I took a glance at the war situation and one thing I picked up on is Germany's lack of metal resources. They currently have one spear guarding a metal resource that isn't connected to their cities (unless by someway outside of their cultural borders). There is also a iron source adjacent to their border in the bottom half of their empire, but they don't have access to it yet. In other words, they don't have the required resources anymore to be able to attack us.

No matter what we do, I suggest before we end the war we make it so that they cannot get a hold of those two resources.

Please, do not forget they may have traded, or trade in the future, for it.

Best regards,

fed1943 said:

Please, do not forget they may have traded, or trade in the future, for it.

Best regards,

Click to expand...

Well, the only other nation on this continent is Rome, and they've been at war with them for ages, so I'll doubt Julius is willing to trade iron.

dutchfire said:

Well, the only other nation on this continent is Rome, and they've been at war with them for ages, so I'll doubt Julius is willing to trade iron.

Click to expand...

Unless I'm remembering incorrectly, I believe that both iron and copper were available for trade to JC.

They got 1 iron, an unconnected one in Hamburg. They will probably need it to bolster their defenses.