BtS is coming out: Let's discuss strategy for some of the new leaders

Well, there's some new (and old-brought-back) trait combos coming out paired up with some new ubs and uus. Let's talk some strategy

First up, the Dutch.

I'm pretty happy about creative-financial being back in the game. Cathy's old traits. I'm thinking now that the Cathy cottage spam can = Dutch cottage spam. While Dutch don't have uber cossacks, they do have some potential for some nicely cottage-spammed cities. They start with ag + fishing meaning nice early growth whether inland or coastal. So, I'm thinking: Grow capital to size 4, start by beelining wheel-pottery, get down 2-3 cottages, and then get out some workers/settlers. A less aggressive strategy perhaps, but I think it makes for a nice opening taking advantage of what dutch has to offer. I'm thinking they're more of an economic power-house. Hopefully you don't get boxed in so you can build peacefully for a time. I'm thinking if possible attack with cats instead of axes (if you have a close neighbour, of course, axe rush). Slow-but-steady would be my motto with the dutch

Next up, Mayans. I'm really looking forward to these guys. Their starting techs (mysticism/mining) kind of make me scratch my head, but let's see what they've got! Financial-expansive. Ahhh...Vicki's old traits. I'm really looking forward to this combo. Some super-nice synergy with pottery. Unfortunately, no ag, no wheel, no fishing as starting techs Plus the starting techs don't lead you toward pottery tbh. Mysticism makes one think of medit/poly to start. Mining makes one think bw. The uu is a spearman that can be built without copper/iron. That makes me think hunting asap for a quick rush. Where is ag/wheel/fishing in all this? That's my only concern. I see a real lack of synergy. I guess in the end I'm thinking you have some options: close neighbour? hunting first and mass holcan spearmen. no close neighbour? go for a religion or go bw and chop-expand your empire. floodplains? beeline ag-wheel-pottery. The ub is an extra- coliseum. So I'm thinking construction could be a nice time to strike if you don't have a close neighbour for a spear-rush.

Sumerians

Well, they're protective, which I'm not thrilled about, but they've got some other nice things going for them. Creative is a v. nice early trait. They start with ag-wheel (my fav). Their UU is an extra-strength axe that is worse vs. melee. Their UB is a cheap courthouse. Ummmmmmm...this isn't rocket science people Axe-rush (bw) followed by mass-whipped courthouses (col). Creative is also a SE tech (imho) so combined with col (caste system + phil lightbulb for pacificism) you could have a nice post-war-expansion SE going.

Lincoln

Charismatic-Philosophical. I have been waiting for this new combo for awhile. I was sad it wasn't in warlords. Pretty sweet imo. Charismatic for the extra early and it is a nice military trait. Phil is of course the premier SE trait. v. nice combo indeed. Ag-fishing means early capital growth coastal or inland. Of course a v. late UU and UB means you will probably want to be going space or conquest/late domination. I'm thinking the latter since the SEAL is a nice military unit that won't come into play if you're peacefully teching away. So, I'm thinking at some point you're going to be wanting to be beelining-industrialism and then whichever tech it is for supermarkets hoping to get them online to be useful before you win. Regardless, I think the trait and tech combo is very, very useful.

Boudica

Man, she's a military powerhouse. No archipelago maps for her Cha-Agg means warfare early and often. I posted a Boudica strat thread on these very forums where I talk about the prospect of getting early march units pumping out of your HE city combined with a medic3 unit. I think we have here the possibility of an early conquest win (a lot of razing) on pangaea or a somewhat later conquest win on continents. Basically, your stack just keeps on rolling, razing as it goes. Meanwhile you are constantly generating GGs which go into making march-unit-production centers with military academies.

I saved the best two for last...

Pericles

Creative-philosophical. WOOT! The ultimate (imho) SE combo. creative = cheap libraries, theatres, coliseums (the latter two for with culture slider) plus nice early city placement. Philosophical = obvious. Fishing-hunting kinda sucks as starting techs, but the trait combo makes up for it imo. The UB is passable. I've heard rumours the UU will change. If it doesn't, it is an "ok" unit. If it does, it could be game-breaking from what I've heard (axes that start with march???). Irregardless, I'm looking forward to (ab)using this trait combo!

Darius

Financial + organized + immortals. Can I get a: WOOT!?!?!?! Pretty insane if you ask me. Immortal-rush 1 (preferably 2) close opponents while teching to COL. Whip courthouses everywhere. Cottage spam. Win. Ag-hunt means early ah. No horses would blow, but still this trait combo, which used to be Washington's will be great!

I think Justinian deserves some love for a warmongering SE with unlimited happy and your beloved Guilds beeline. Even without the first strike immunity, the Cataphract should be better than Knights at taking cities (maybe not on hills? I'm sure one of the combat nerds will do the math), and by that time you should have a Heroic Epic city with Stables and settled Great Generals.

Yes, if I can ever get that guilds beeline to work, I think Justinian would be great. The cataphract looks like a great uu. Unfortunately, I don't think he has a lot going for him besides the uu.

At 20% culture with Theatre and Colosseum, most civs get +7 Happy, he gets +10-11. At 40% most get +11, he gets +17-18. I'm certain that can be put to interesting strategic use. Think about drafting, or capturing cities.

@ Darius.

My first win on Monarch was with Cyrus. This is mainly because Immortals + Slavery = one dead neighbor before 800 BC and an empire doubled in size in just a few turns. I can't even find words to describe how much Darius is going to pwn everyone.

Also, Justinian's traits look good. Imperialistic could use improvement, but it isn't weak if used properly. Do some early war to generate a couple great generals and settle them in production city #1, build a stable, switch to Vassalage and Theocracy on a whim (Spiritual, remember) build Cataphracts and send them forth to bulldoze through the rest of your continent.

Jet said:

At 20% culture with Theatre and Colosseum, most civs get +7 Happy, he gets +10-11. At 40% most get +11, he gets +17-18. I'm certain that can be put to interesting strategic use. Think about drafting, or capturing cities.

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Not to mention size 20+ SE cities with piles of scientists during peacetime.

This thread should be moved to the BTS forum

CivCorpse said:

This thread should be moved to the BTS forum

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Let's discuss strategy for some of the new leaders.

I think it's a bit difficult to plan general strats beyond anything that's obvious given the traits. But what the hell.

Sumerian cities are going to be ridiculously hard to take, making them great for MP. And the AI defends with Archers, so their UU's penalty is insignificant in single-player. A strong domination civ IMO.

I like the theme of Mesoamerican units not requiring resources (though the price the Jaguar pays for this is high.) I'm looking forward to the Mayans. When I play as the Aztecs I enjoy the fact that I don't need bronze to wage a successful early war (though it still helps.)

So with the Mayans we have another early-rush civ. Myst+Mining doesn't make me scratch my head - it makes me pleased. Personally I never go for an early religion, but being able to build Stonehenge without spending beakers on Mysticism is fantastic. You can research BW on turn 1, and there is no pressure to quickly claim bronze with a 2nd city, meaning Stonehenge is quite easy for the Maya to pick up.

1) Play with an Industrious Leader
2) Get a great capital location with stone nearby
3) Spam wonders
4) ????
5) Profit

I kid I kid

I think this thread belongs in here, not in the poll infested BTS forum.

I'm looking forward to trying out Pacal II (Mayans) to see what the ultimate cottage spammer can accomplish! Hordes of workers spamming cottages from expansive, piles of gold from financial.

Portuguese looks interisting too, cheap workers and settlers would crank out some large and productive empires very quickly.

I was thinking of trying a quick rush as the Maya, then turning towards the cottage spam to build up my economy. The Holkan is just too good to pass up...it's practically as good as a Quecha for rushing, but has the added advantage of slaughtering cavalry. Only axes can stop them...

Antilogic said:

I was thinking of trying a quick rush as the Maya, then turning towards the cottage spam to build up my economy. The Holkan is just too good to pass up...it's practically as good as a Quecha for rushing, but has the added advantage of slaughtering cavalry. Only axes can stop them...

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Bah. Still nowhere near the Quecha. You need Bronzeworking for Holkans which rules out the super quick rush. The Quecha costs 15 , now assuming the Holkan costs 35 like the spearman, what do you have?

Rubbish. That's what.

[EDIT] The only thing I can see it useful as is when you have catapults but no metal. They can then cover the catapults in the field better than archers.

frob2900 said:

Bah. Still nowhere near the Quecha. You need Bronzeworking for Holkans which rules out the super quick rush. The Quecha costs 15 , now assuming the Holkan costs 35 like the spearman, what do you have?

Rubbish. That's what.

[EDIT] The only thing I can see it useful as is when you have catapults but no metal. They can then cover the catapults in the field better than archers.

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Do u definitely need bronzeworking? if so then it does nerf the holkan, still not bad tho.

PMabey said:

Do u definitely need bronzeworking? if so then it does nerf the holkan, still not bad tho.

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Well if it replaces spearman then you do. That's the way the game mechanics work.

You also need iron working for jaguars, remember. (btw. that's the biggest suck nerf ever)

It's all well and good discussing BtS strategies but aren't we merely applying tried and tested Warlords routes/ideas when in fact corporations, apostyilcococo palace etc and altered tech paths could easily nerf "tried and tested methods" ?

Gwil said:

It's all well and good discussing BtS strategies but aren't we merely applying tried and tested Warlords routes/ideas when in fact corporations, apostyilcococo palace etc and altered tech paths could easily nerf "tried and tested methods" ?

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Yes, we are

Yeah, some of the BTS features could change things, but I don't think things are going to change THAT much. Corporations, for example, don't come until the late game. It will be interesting to see the impact that AP and espionage have on the game of course!

So with the Mayans we have another early-rush civ. Myst+Mining doesn't make me scratch my head - it makes me pleased. Personally I never go for an early religion, but being able to build Stonehenge without spending beakers on Mysticism is fantastic. You can research BW on turn 1, and there is no pressure to quickly claim bronze with a 2nd city, meaning Stonehenge is quite easy for the Maya to pick up.

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yeah, nabbing stonehenge will be handy, I agree there. and not having to nab copper/horses in first city for barb defense (archer/warrior) means you can nab the best-looking commerce city first, which is good. then once you get your 3rd/production city established, you can start spamming spearmen and away you go. of course if you have a close enough neighbour, you can avoid building cities altogether and just focus on spears and taking cities from your neighbour.

As for the new mechanics, I'm wondering how the AI is going to handle the new, expanded espionage system. If it can make even semi-competent use of it, the entire system seems to favor Financial and Organized civs, as your spying ability flows directly from your GPT.

I agree that corporations come too late to probably be a game-deciding factor.

Aside from these I don't think basic strategy will change too drastically. The key difference on a nuts-and-bolts level is that cities are harder to take and Catapults a bit less valuable.

I heard the GW will now require Walls in 3 cities? While I don't like this nerf to my GE -> Metal Casting strat, I like that it buffs Protective civs. I also like things that increase historical accuracy. Now Qin is the best-poised to grab the GW, much as Brennus is set up to benefit greatly from an early Stonehenge. (That's what I heard anyway; couldn't confirm it in any of the BtS threads.)