Why can't cities build espionage?

Virulent · Jul 30, 2007

I've noticed in BtS that cities can't build espionage in they way that they can build wealth, research and culture. It seems like an oversight to me as espionage is an key part of the economy in BtS.

I think communism would be a good choice for the tech that would allow cities to build espionage.

magicalsushi · Jul 30, 2007

Virulent said:
I've noticed in BtS that cities can't build espionage in they way that they can build wealth, research and culture. It seems like an oversight to me as espionage is an key part of the economy in BtS.

I think communism would be a good choice for the tech that would allow cities to build espionage.

Someone else - I forget who - modified his game so that Civil Service allowed this. I think that's a very appropriate tech. In the unmodified game, it doesn't have any espionage abilities associated with it, yet surely it's a pretty key societal construct in real life espionage networks.

I have no idea why Firaxis didn't implement espionage-building; I'd be very interested to know why, or if it's just a simple oversight. I don't particularly miss it myself, but it does feel a little incomplete without having the option. I can't see an argument against from either a gameplay nor a historic point of view.

Slade19 · Jul 31, 2007

Balance?

You can steal techs with sometimes less than a third of their beaker cost worth of EP.

Who would build research when you could just build EP and get 2 or 3 (or more with subsequent trading) techs for the price of one?

frob2900 · Jul 31, 2007

Slade19 said:
Balance?

You can steal techs with sometimes less than a third of their beaker cost worth of EP.

Who would build research when you could just build EP and get 2 or 3 (or more with subsequent trading) techs for the price of one?

Well, the same argument goes for running scientist specialists for research, rather than spys.. or running the slider for science rather than espionage..

I agree with the Civil Service tech for building espionage.

SabreNation · Jul 31, 2007

This thread just reminded me that I want to try something.

Once I get writing I'm gonna drop my Science slider to 0% and put Espionage up as high as I can without running at a deficit. From there I'll just steal/trade all the technologies.

Not that it'd be any great strategy or anything, I just want to see if it'll work. I've been wanting to really test the limits of the Espionage system. I've already used a strong spy network to wage cold wars and bend opposing civs to my will. Now I want to see if I can just forgo scientific research and just go all-out espionage to keep up in the technology race. Should be interesting...

Tristan daCunha · Aug 1, 2007

SabreNation said:
Should be interesting...

Indeed! Please let us know how it goes.

Leventis · Aug 2, 2007

frob2900 said:
Well, the same argument goes for running scientist specialists for research, rather than spys.. or running the slider for science rather than espionage..

I agree with the Civil Service tech for building espionage.

But when you run a SE, you are not directly receiving a discount on the techs you pop in the way that stealing them through spies allows. I think Slade's point is exactly why they didn't include it -- just way too overpowered and would lead to ridiculous situations like where one civ would tech normally and the other 6 gather EPs to steal at discount prices. Though it would be funny to see what happened if the teching civ then got wiped out. :lol:

magicalsushi · Aug 2, 2007

Leventis said:
But when you run a SE, you are not directly receiving a discount on the techs you pop in the way that stealing them through spies allows.

Although I don't think it was very well-phrased, I thought the point was that, if espionage really is so much more efficient than regular research, you can currently run spy specialists instead of scientists, but I've not yet noticed people doing this. I suppose a potential spanner in the works is that Caste System won't help you out with this tactic, but frankly, I'm of the opinion that it's over-rated for scientist specialists anyway. How many do you really need? Practically everything you can build seems to let you run extra science specialists!

Pomp · Aug 2, 2007

While I agree that building espionage would be a nice feature, I think Civil Service is already sort of overloaded, with Macemen, Bureaucracy, and Irrigation tied to it. Making it even more key might lead to a boring sameness of tech paths.

Edit: To build on what others have said, if techs can be reliably stolen for a third of their beaker costs in EP, then the spy specialists are amazing. They yield 1 beaker and 4 EP (1 + (4 * 3) = 13 effective beakers) as opposed to a scientist's 3 beakers.

Martinus · Aug 2, 2007

Slade19 said:
Balance?

You can steal techs with sometimes less than a third of their beaker cost worth of EP.

Who would build research when you could just build EP and get 2 or 3 (or more with subsequent trading) techs for the price of one?

Two reasons:

- this would only work if you were behind your opponent in technology, not if you wanted to have some tech before your opponent (which imo is also quite realistic - being first to get some tech should be more expensive than simply apeing someone else's discovery),

- if you get a tech from espionnage you cannot trade it under the No Tech Brokering option.

Thedrin · Aug 2, 2007

MagicalSushi:
if espionage really is so much more efficient than regular research, you can currently run spy specialists instead of scientists, but I've not yet noticed people doing this.

Maybe they're not doing this because for there's only one spy specialist available before constitution?

kokomo · Aug 2, 2007

talking 'bout spires, if you keep one in each of your cities will it improve counterespionage?

Underdawg · Aug 2, 2007

Martinus said:
Two reasons:

- this would only work if you were behind your opponent in technology, not if you wanted to have some tech before your opponent (which imo is also quite realistic - being first to get some tech should be more expensive than simply apeing someone else's discovery),

- if you get a tech from espionnage you cannot trade it under the No Tech Brokering option.

Just one comment...

If you are always ahead in tech I think you may need to up the difficulty! :goodjob:

Or not, your game, you decide how to play it.

Optimizer · Aug 2, 2007

magicalsushi said:
Someone else - I forget who - modified his game so that Civil Service allowed this.

I did it for my house mod.

I also, among other things, removed irrigation from Civil Service so it was not overpowered.

I will not playtest much more until the first balancing patch comes out.

Why can't cities build espionage?

Virulent

King

magicalsushi

Prince

Slade19

Chieftain

frob2900

Deity

SabreNation

Chieftain

Tristan daCunha

Pacifist Aggressive

Leventis

Warlord

magicalsushi

Prince

Pomp

Chieftain

Martinus

Emperor

Thedrin

Deity

kokomo

Warlord

Underdawg

King

Optimizer

Sthlm, SWE

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