Resource appearance and disapearance/relocation

Although similar topic was discussed just a little time ago (started by someone else), i didn't got answer to my question in there.. and because the title of thread was somewhat misleading, i thought i'll start a new one.

So anyone who has knowledge about this matter please give answers.

Mostly, i am interested about resource apearance ratio number.. how it works, and how (much) it is affected by world size, dissapearance probability.. and maybe there's something else you guys know what affects it (for example, number of resources for one terrain type etc.).
Because, i added new resources into play, but few of these doesn't appear in any game when i choose tiny or small map.. and that seems to be so whatever appearance ratios i type.. yet they appear in standard sized and larger maps.. may say, then there's even too much of these, cuz i intended so that some resources are scarce (but now i'd be happy, if i'd just get them onto all map sizes)

AncientOne said:

Although similar topic was discussed just a little time ago (started by someone else), i didn't got answer to my question in there.. and because the title of thread was somewhat misleading, i thought i'll start a new one.

So anyone who has knowledge about this matter please give answers.

Mostly, i am interested about resource apearance ratio number.. how it works, and how (much) it is affected by world size, dissapearance probability.. and maybe there's something else you guys know what affects it (for example, number of resources for one terrain type etc.).
Because, i added new resources into play, but few of these doesn't appear in any game when i choose tiny or small map.. and that seems to be so whatever appearance ratios i type.. yet they appear in standard sized and larger maps.. may say, then there's even too much of these, cuz i intended so that some resources are scarce (but now i'd be happy, if i'd just get them onto all map sizes)

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I've given the explanation of how appearance ratio works in PTW and C3C/Complete, with an exact formula for it. Main factors are ratio, number of players and world size. Terrain type generally affects bonus resources, not strats/luxuries, except for some extreme cases. It's a long read, but here it is: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=69502

As for the DISappearance, as I said earlier, I remembered it was 1/X chance of relocation, based on Neomega's tests. I can't find the thread though and I'm not sure of it anymore. Disappearance ratio, however, does not affect resource distribution while the map is generated, nor it can make the resource disappear from the map, only move to another location.

Just thought I'd sum it up since the thread is old and deals with PTW vs. C3C. This is true for most cases unless you have some weird settings so that there's not enough of a given terrain for its resource etc.:

1) Strategic resources are done first, with this formula: RATIO * NUMBER OF PLAYERS / 133, rounded down
2) Luxuries are done next, 33-66% of the NUMBER OF PLAYERS, unless RATIO is given, then it uses the formula from pt.1
3) The remaining resource spots (4% of total world tiles) is filled with bonus resources, distributed proportionally to each terrain type. This means that if you have too many strategic resources, you may have very little or no bonus resources.

EDIT: Regarding your problem, an appearance ratio of 1 should always give 1 resource even on a tiny map. If you get 0, it means you likely have your total ratios higher than the ~4% of world size, so the generator runs out of tiles for resource placement as early as on stage 1.

embryodead said:

Regarding your problem, an appearance ratio of 1 should always give 1 resource even on a tiny map. If you get 0, it means you likely have your total ratios higher than the ~4% of world size, so the generator runs out of tiles for resource placement as early as on stage 1.

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Thanks.. i think this might be teh problem. I'm going to test this out now (with smaller appearance ratios)

BTW.. does it compute these appearances from first strategic to last (in editor) and then others.. i mean, that if i add most needed strategic resources first, does that then make them deffinately to be on the map, even if there is too great appearance ratio

And did i understand correctly, that strategic ressources get 4% of the total land area, luxury gets it's own 4% and also bonus gets it's 4%.. so altogether all resources can have 12% of the land.. and if any of them have appearance so high, that it makes more than 4% of the land area, then some of the resources will be just left out (like in my game).

BTW.. does it compute these appearances from first strategic to last (in editor) and then others.. i mean, that if i add most needed strategic resources first, does that then make them deffinately to be on the map, even if there is too great appearance ratio

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Knowing some programming logic I can tell it's very likely that it works that way, but I haven't tested it. For other reasons, I usually ordered my resources to have common strategics at the top. You can re-order your resources quick with Civ3MT and see if it helps.

And did i understand correctly, that strategic ressources get 4% of the total land area, luxury gets it's own 4% and also bonus gets it's 4%.. so altogether all resources can have 12% of the land.. and if any of them have appearance so high, that it makes more than 4% of the land area, then some of the resources will be just left out (like in my game).

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No, it's 4% for all resources, total.

I recommend MapTweaker tool for testing if you don't have one already, it shows stastics for your maps, like how many tiles of each type, how many of each resource etc.

post edited, cuz i found answer to my problem. I'm really sorry about bumping this up without reason.

Share the answer! Maybe someone else needs the solution as well!

nah.. the true answer for my prob was what embryodead wrote, yet after fixing everything according to his advice, i did just a stupid mistake, and without noticing it, i thought that embryodead's advice didn't work and posted for additional help.. soon i realised that there must be something that i just have left between the eyes.
So, lastly i did 3 things.. like embryodead advised, i lowered appearance ratios, made maps bigger (thus giving more ground for resource computing) and rised the number of players on each size of the map. With little testing by creating number of random maps in editor, i just got, what i was looking for - big landmasses with great spaces between resources, most resources are very scarce (and should bring more wars for controlling these), yet now i have at least one or couple on every map

See, I found your laying out what you did to apply ED's solution helpful! In the other thread I was asking about similar issues because I hope to make a mod with only nomadic civs (cities will be like seasonal camps); they will have to pick up and move as resources change location over time. You just pinpointed some specific ways I can make it work more effectively.

sry for bump, but:
my main problem is when i add 4 more strategic resource, and 2 bonus, the strategic will appear much like i set their appearance ratios, but there is less luxury and much less bonus. now i understand why..

is there anyway to increase the 4% limit without setting mapsizes?

and 80% ocean set maps really provide you with more resources compared to land area size?

.....

I have over 200 resources in my game, I play 31 civs on a 195 x 195 map.

I have seen games where all the resources have shown up and others where they haven't.

A lot has to due with the terrain types that the resources are assigned to, if the map has a hot climate, then there will not be a lot of tundra tiles in the game and then there will be less tundra resources showing up. Younger planet means more mountain and hill resources, .....

Grassland would be the the highest number of tiles in a typical game and should receive the highest ratio of resources when you are assigning them. I have removed mines from flat terrain types (grass, plains, tundra, desert), and assigned bonus resources to those terrain types to represent mines, better variety, rather than the same mines everywhere, and they can show up has more modern mines as the game progresses (wouldn't want a lithium mine showing up in the beginning of the game).

I don't mind that different resources show up in each game depending of the world type, it adds to the variety and replay value.

That is a great idea about using resources as mines, Pounder. If I ever get back to making Civ mods I will have to try it out.

.....

Etain said:

Thanks for the reply Pounder. I tried several times with 66 resources(15-S,10-L,& 41-B) on a 140x140 map w/ 16 civs and could only get a few of the bonus resources to show up regardless of climate/age hence my query. I have no idea how you can get 200+ to show up even some of the time.

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195x195 is twice the size of 140x140 (38000 versus 19000 tiles).

I have over 40 resources for sea and coast.

I spent some time realizing how many more grassland tiles there are than others, probably because I like to play Pangaea with only 60% water, so about 50 resources for grassland.

So there was some balancing acts on the terrain type assignments.

Pounder said:

I have removed mines from flat terrain types (grass, plains, tundra, desert), and assigned bonus resources to those terrain types to represent mines, better variety, rather than the same mines everywhere, and they can show up has more modern mines as the game progresses (wouldn't want a lithium mine showing up in the beginning of the game).

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Have you posted those mine resources anywhere, Pounder? I'd like to see them.

(sorry that's OT, it caught my eye..)

Balthasar said:

Have you posted those mine resources anywhere, Pounder? I'd like to see them.

(sorry that's OT, it caught my eye..)

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I actually only have about 6 or seven that actually look like mines and the rest are resource icons such as pumpjacks, various buildings, oil and gas storage, intermodal depot, grain elevators, etc...

None are new just mines and resources are that that have been posted.

My resources http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=403770, I have had added only desert resources, set of turkey resources and a set of greenhouses.