BTS vs. Vanilla/Warlords Discussion
- Thread starter Denniz
- Start date
Spacerace: No way - they slowed down research a lot by making Inflation exponential rather then linear and adding more techs and making you wait after you launch.
Diplomacy: the AP actually might make it possible for earlier Diplo wins, other then that it will probably be similiar if you aim for UN
Cultural: You could have more trouble with the Espionage system (since the AI is very trigger happy and I am not sure you can afford to run Espionage at 0 for the endgame when you need culture, but this might be countered by the fact that they changed the number of gameturns and you have a little more turns for the same date.
Conquest: sure, seeing that the AI is off to an even slower start early conquest might even be easier.
Domination: no way other than Pangea - once you need lots of cities on another continent you are crippled by upkeep - which will make it longer to achieve.
Time: sure - you have more time so you can do more milking at the end
Space - No way (for reasons Ori mentioned above)
Diplo - Maybe (ditto)
Cultural - Maybe (enhanced Sistine Chapel might make it easier)
Conquest - Cheese Duel/Quecha rushes won't be any more (or less) effective but on larger maps, the AI whipping defenders will make it much harder.
Domination - No way (except for the cheese maybe for reasons above)
Time - Hopefully I'll never have to find out
If it doesn't create massive headaches, I'd say seperate tables.
Diplo - Maybe (ditto)
Cultural - Maybe (enhanced Sistine Chapel might make it easier)
Conquest - Cheese Duel/Quecha rushes won't be any more (or less) effective but on larger maps, the AI whipping defenders will make it much harder.
Domination - No way (except for the cheese
maybe for reasons above)Time - Hopefully I'll never have to find out
If it doesn't create massive headaches, I'd say seperate tables.
Jean d´Eath
Chieftain
Space - No way
Diplo - maybe, but i think one my need distinct slot for wins with AP and UN
Cultural - can't decide yet
Conquest - can't decide yet
Domination - No way
Time - for a future start it seems comarable
Diplo - maybe, but i think one my need distinct slot for wins with AP and UN
Cultural - can't decide yet
Conquest - can't decide yet
Domination - No way
Time - for a future start it seems comarable
With "Inc. Beta" checked, all games ever accepted into the HOF for permanent or beta are searched when displaying tables. This includes all previous betas. The usual two best games per player applies. You still have to come up with a better date to make a table.
The Beta just gives us time to figure out what we are going to do about BTS. We can't promise anything at this point
Okay, so are you pointing that out for the purposes of this thread's discussion or are you asking for a change relating to the current Beta?
Denniz
May be clean current Beta table from games and separate Beta table from permanent table.
So, it will be 2 tables:
1 for Vanilla and Warlords
2 for BTS (with random event checked)
And make new tables for new BTS Quattromasters.
May be clean current Beta table from games and separate Beta table from permanent table.
So, it will be 2 tables:
1 for Vanilla and Warlords
2 for BTS (with random event checked)
And make new tables for new BTS Quattromasters.
That's a possibility, but we are trying not make too many changes until we decide what we are going to do with BTS long term.
That is what this discussion is supposed to be about. Do you think you can beat the permanent vanilla/warlords with BTS?
Denniz,
For example, submission #8331, Player sir_spink , Chieftain, Time victory, Score 3831.
I can beat this score by BTS, but there are many games in permanent vanilla/warlords table that have big score or earliest finish date wins. It is not very interesting to play without result and pleasure.
May be it is very expensive for HOF to have 2 separate tables, so this option will do for money, like on-line’s games.
For example, submission #8331, Player sir_spink , Chieftain, Time victory, Score 3831.
I can beat this score by BTS, but there are many games in permanent vanilla/warlords table that have big score or earliest finish date wins. It is not very interesting to play without result and pleasure.
May be it is very expensive for HOF to have 2 separate tables, so this option will do for money, like on-line’s games.
Just to show one more reason why BtS won't be comparable, here are some
timepoints for Vanilla/Warlords (V/W) vs. Beyond the Sword
10%/20%/30%/40%/50%/60%/70%/80%/90%
(of course 0% = -4000 for all and 100% = 2050 for all )
For all speeds upper line is V/W, lower line is BtS (I added arbitrary months for Epic and Marathon V/W were applicable)
Quick
-2080/-510/530/1220/1575/1760/1908/1972/2018
-2020/-440/620/1420/1700/1790/1922/1988/2027
Normal
-2160/-575/560/1240/1600/1812/1904/1958/2004
-2000/-375/800/1400/1700/1860/1930/1980/2025
Epic
-2020/-520/470/1244/1580/1762/1852/1918/Jan.1984
-2125/-350/775/1400/1730/1860/1935/1975/Jul.2013
Marathon
-2200/-600/580/1270/1450/1570/1690/1810/Jan.1930
-2000/-500/750/1410/1710/1881/1956/2001/Jul.2037
As you can see all timepoints are at an earlier game date in V/W than in BtS so even if you are just as fast relative to the new game lengths you still loose
timepoints for Vanilla/Warlords (V/W) vs. Beyond the Sword
10%/20%/30%/40%/50%/60%/70%/80%/90%
(of course 0% = -4000 for all and 100% = 2050 for all
)For all speeds upper line is V/W, lower line is BtS (I added arbitrary months for Epic and Marathon V/W were applicable)
Quick
-2080/-510/530/1220/1575/1760/1908/1972/2018
-2020/-440/620/1420/1700/1790/1922/1988/2027
Normal
-2160/-575/560/1240/1600/1812/1904/1958/2004
-2000/-375/800/1400/1700/1860/1930/1980/2025
Epic
-2020/-520/470/1244/1580/1762/1852/1918/Jan.1984
-2125/-350/775/1400/1730/1860/1935/1975/Jul.2013
Marathon
-2200/-600/580/1270/1450/1570/1690/1810/Jan.1930
-2000/-500/750/1410/1710/1881/1956/2001/Jul.2037
As you can see all timepoints are at an earlier game date in V/W than in BtS so even if you are just as fast relative to the new game lengths you still loose
If this is the only thing causing a discrepency between BTS and V/W then we can easily mod the dates to be the same...Just to show one more reason why BtS won't be comparable, here are some
...
As you can see all timepoints are at an earlier game date in V/W than in BtS so even if you are just as fast relative to the new game lengths you still loose
It is definitely not the only thing - but adds to it since the additional turns have just been added to the very late dates.
The other stuff discussed above also applies.
I still think that (unless that is changed in a future patch) the AI is very vulnerable early on, so early conquest might be easier, but anything that forces you to have a larger empire (especially on two or more continents) will take much longer to achieve.
It will however be interesting to see how the peaceful variants play out in terms of relative dates (i.e. percent of game turns) - it might actually not be as bad as I thought it would, but that is only a guess (from not even half a dozen completed games
)
Just to show one more reason why BtS won't be comparable, here are some
timepoints for Vanilla/Warlords (V/W) vs. Beyond the Sword
10%/20%/30%/40%/50%/60%/70%/80%/90%
(of course 0% = -4000 for all and 100% = 2050 for all
For all speeds upper line is V/W, lower line is BtS (I added arbitrary months for Epic and Marathon V/W were applicable)
Quick
-2080/-510/530/1220/1575/1760/1908/1972/2018
-2020/-440/620/1420/1700/1790/1922/1988/2027
Normal
-2160/-575/560/1240/1600/1812/1904/1958/2004
-2000/-375/800/1400/1700/1860/1930/1980/2025
Epic
-2020/-520/470/1244/1580/1762/1852/1918/Jan.1984
-2125/-350/775/1400/1730/1860/1935/1975/Jul.2013
Marathon
-2200/-600/580/1270/1450/1570/1690/1810/Jan.1930
-2000/-500/750/1410/1710/1881/1956/2001/Jul.2037
As you can see all timepoints are at an earlier game date in V/W than in BtS so even if you are just as fast relative to the new game lengths you still loose
I have thought about this, and I think this isn't a problem. The first 5% might end later, but it is also longer in-game. What matters is the amount of turns of production, growth and research and unit moves. I'd like to see a graph of Date(turnnumber) for both VW and BtS. A rush for example just needs X turns of production and movement, it might well be that these X turns end on an earlier date in BtS. Of course, there are more techs to research in BtS, but only one of them is early and needed "Aesthetics", Military Science is optional and the rest is only needed for Space Race.
I'd say that the turn numbers are not a problem in the comparison between BtS and VW.
ori
If the costs of research and builds haven't changed between V/W and BtS, then your deciles bear no significance as you do not really care whether some turns have been added to the end unless you're playing to win by Time - you won't reach them to notice the difference.
I agree with dutchfire you should look at turns-to-years.
If the costs of research and builds haven't changed between V/W and BtS, then your deciles bear no significance as you do not really care whether some turns have been added to the end unless you're playing to win by Time - you won't reach them to notice the difference.
I agree with dutchfire you should look at turns-to-years.
I have to admit that when I looked at the game speed the first thing I thought was what I posted above, on second thought: you guys are probably right, but since I did a spreadsheet to calculate the turn/date stuff anyway - here are the new and old speeds compared (actually this shows for most speeds that they are not even skewed much at all, apart from marathon):
Dracandross
Warlord
I haven't yet finished totally BTS-1 game but it starts to show things anyway...
1) First first GAge takes only 1 gp, which means you can have few of those easier. Specially good for launching as you get engineer anyway for it.
2) Am I right but I think they have added some preqs for techs. Like computers take now plastics and it used to be just radio. Therefore getting labs up takes alot longer.
3) New wonders might make life easier at lower levels
4) Time win can be harder (havent checked numbers). But if they just added techs to tree and future tech gives still 7pts % of points it gives is reduced unless scoring is tweaked. Same goes for wonders too
5) Espionage slows down for sure specially when you have to grind slider up instead of just hanging with courthouse+capital etc
But in the end there are so many changes that you can't decide it totally by numbers only unless thinking of very early wins. For example national park will be killer on culturals if its attainable early enough (at least again with PA & non quick). It seems though that BtS is harder for same date...
-Dracandross
1) First first GAge takes only 1 gp, which means you can have few of those easier. Specially good for launching as you get engineer anyway for it.
2) Am I right but I think they have added some preqs for techs. Like computers take now plastics and it used to be just radio. Therefore getting labs up takes alot longer.
3) New wonders might make life easier at lower levels
4) Time win can be harder (havent checked numbers). But if they just added techs to tree and future tech gives still 7pts % of points it gives is reduced unless scoring is tweaked. Same goes for wonders too
5) Espionage slows down for sure specially when you have to grind slider up instead of just hanging with courthouse+capital etc
But in the end there are so many changes that you can't decide it totally by numbers only unless thinking of very early wins. For example national park will be killer on culturals if its attainable early enough (at least again with PA & non quick). It seems though that BtS is harder for same date...
-Dracandross
The main change I've seen from Vanilla to BtS (It's working now 
) is that the AI isn't as stupid as it used to be in the military area. In vanilla, an AI would normally just have 2 defensive units in every city, and a stack of 4-5-6 offensive units would just win. Now, they can easily have stacks of 6, with archers, swordsmen, spearmen and axemen. Add to that that vanilla didn't have protective trait, and my first two opponents now did have that trait, and things didn't go smoothly.
) is that the AI isn't as stupid as it used to be in the military area. In vanilla, an AI would normally just have 2 defensive units in every city, and a stack of 4-5-6 offensive units would just win. Now, they can easily have stacks of 6, with archers, swordsmen, spearmen and axemen. Add to that that vanilla didn't have protective trait, and my first two opponents now did have that trait, and things didn't go smoothly.Similar threads
