We need a new Japanese Leader

D

dante alighieri

Warlord
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Oct 31, 2006
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Because Toku stinks. In every game he is completely isolationist and xenophobic. Won't trade, won't open borders, won't do anything but make demansds to stop trading with so and so, which are not even laughable. They aren't because his isolationist policy usually leaves him so fantastically weak, he's like a buzzing gnat. Annoying, but barely noticeable.

I hate tokugawa for that reason. He shouldn't be in the game, as far as I'm concerned. He contributes nothing and he's not even worth conquering most of the time. I'm sure someone somewhere has seen him do something noteworthy, but i never have. I have never ever seen his UU. EVER. In my last game I forgot he was there. By the time the other civs and I were buidling spaceship parts he was still looking for Divine Right. Why no one wiped him out is beyond me.

If I were Japanese I'd be upset about being represented in game by such a loser.
 
While this is true, it's fun to play as Japan in the Earth18civs scenario. Samurai show up at a good time.
 
I agree to dante, Toku is probably the worst possible AI I have seen. I mean sure Boudicca, Monty and Shaka will wage wars with you but hey atleast they are willing to trade. With Tokugawa, even if I share the same religion he won't open borders or trade any kind of goods.
 
Historically, Tokugawa is accurate. He really did completely isolate Japan from the rest of the world after becoming Shogun. Trouble is that in Civ this means Japan never gets out of the middle ages. Every game I've played that goes beyond the middle ages, I just see Japan as a snack to gobble up.

Emperor Meiji would be a good choice - overthrew the old Shogunate government and modernised Japan. Basically saved Japan from becoming a colony of America or one of the European nations.

I'm sure there are a few interesting leaders from Japan's early history too, though my knowledge of that era is too poor to suggest any.
 
Play unrestricted leaders or random personalities... or mod in a new leader yourself, until then you'll have to wait for the next expansion assuming there is one.
 
Switching to random personalities seems like a decent idea, but it would randomize every AI, wouldn't it? Not that its a game breaker, but thats a lot just to get toku to do something.

I'm serious....has anyone ever seen Toku do anything significant in ANY game without random personalities or tweaking the AI in some way? Has he built any wonders? Has he even been a reasonable threat or contender to win in any way? Heck, has he made a lame joke like the other AI's do every so often? ("Look! Godzilla!"). The way he is now, his AI should apologize for using any computer resources during every game since he does nothing.

But I'm really interested in any answers to my questions...it would be like a Bigfoot sighting....
 
dante alighieri said:
Switching to random personalities seems like a decent idea, but it would randomize every AI, wouldn't it? Not that its a game breaker, but thats a lot just to get toku to do something.

I'm serious....has anyone ever seen Toku do anything significant in ANY game without random personalities or tweaking the AI in some way? Has he built any wonders? Has he even been a reasonable threat or contender to win in any way? Heck, has he made a lame joke like the other AI's do every so often? ("Look! Godzilla!"). The way he is now, his AI should apologize for using any computer resources during every game since he does nothing.

But I'm really interested in any answers to my questions...it would be like a Bigfoot sighting....
Click to expand...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4716138
 
slobberinbear said:
Well, if the game's going to include Stalin, I don't see why we can't throw in Hirohito, perhaps Industrious/Protective or somesuch. Personality: Shaka-ish.
Click to expand...

Better suited would be Industrious/Imperialistic.
And I sure as hell would like Hirohito better than that sadistic piece of crap Stalin or that useless, arrogant moron Mao.
Of course, Hirohito did many bad things and refused to take responsibilty for them but if you think about it, Hirohito was doing exactly what the British Empire was doing a half a century before.

The crimes of the Japanese Empire are vast, but amount to what was basically imperialism in the wrong century; rampant colonisation and annexation, resource theft, extermination of native populations. Britain did all that. America too. And most European nations. But Hirohito and Tojo were singled out as evil demons. No doubt because they lost.
Hypocrisy at it's finest.
 
I nominate Emperor Meiji or Minamoto no Yoritomo. Both changed the way Japan was governed. For either -- or any other new Japanese leader -- how about Protective/Organized? The combo should be good for a defensive-minded empire builder.

Japan is significant enough to deserve a 2nd leader, and Tokugawa (even if personality tweaked to be a bit more diplomatic) shouldn't be the only face of Japan in the game.
 
Ironically on Immortal and Diety I have seen Tokogawa on the last two games and he was 2nd in power to Asoka in one game and Alex in the other and 1st in tech, go figure. He wound up killing me so I am not sure if he won the whole game but in my experience he dominates on the two hardest levels.
 
18lama said:
I agree to dante, Toku is probably the worst possible AI I have seen. I mean sure Boudicca, Monty and Shaka will wage wars with you but hey atleast they are willing to trade. With Tokugawa, even if I share the same religion he won't open borders or trade any kind of goods.
Click to expand...

I agree. The main reason Tokugawa performs so poorly in almost all games is because he's the one that trades the least among all the AI's.

1. He's the ONLY AI who needs to be Pleased in order to have open borders. Since he's pretty unfriendly (-1 base attitude), it's very hard to get there unless you share the same religion, which is unlikely since no one can move missionaries into his cities.

2. He's the only AI that needs to be Pleased in order to trade ANY types of resources.

3. He's one of the few AI that needs to be Pleased in order to trade techs. (others are Ragnar, Shaka and Stalin). Furthermore, he's the ONLY AI whose iTechTradeKnownPercent value in the xml is set to 100, which means he won't trade any techs with you unless everyone other single player also has the tech.
 
I like toku, he is an extremist and different. You don't want everyone to be the same at all. I like the random personalities thing, but I would be a little scared, he a pretty wicked UU
 
PibbZ said:
Random personalities is your answer to everything ;)
Click to expand...


Random personalities is just a patch.
Of course I can switch it on, or mod the game. But it just hides the fact that, with Tokugawa, the game is unbalanced. The game itself should fix him a little, to make it a more competitive AI.
I don't want to mod the game to fix a problem. I want the game itself to solve it!
 
18lama said:
I agree to dante, Toku is probably the worst possible AI I have seen. I mean sure Boudicca, Monty and Shaka will wage wars with you but hey atleast they are willing to trade. With Tokugawa, even if I share the same religion he won't open borders or trade any kind of goods.
Click to expand...

You have to butter him up. As soon as you meet him, gift him a tech or two. Once he's opened his borders (that won't take long), gift him a couple of missionaries (you shold gift them, yes, not try to convert his cities, you have to leave him in charge of that), that will most probably make him adopt your religion. Then gift him the techs that enables him to make use of those missionaries. Keep buttering him once or twice more, and he'll be your friend for a lifetime, even if you deny giving into his every whim. This way, you'll end up being the only one he will be trading with and, if you're ahead in tech (not difficult to be ahead of him :) ) and your powergraph is better than his, he'll usually start begging to be your vassal. :D

This is approximately what the portoguise munks did in real life, thus ensuring that Portogal was the only nation alloved to settle in, and trade with, Japan during the isolation period.

It's called "Know thy enemy" ;)
 
Variety is the spice of life, while i may not like certain civ's personalities, and i can think of a few who really are downright annoying, to argue that they be changed to be more in line with everyone else will ultimately lead to a less rich gameing experiance.

The differant civ's personalties is what makes them unique, it's what infuriates us about some civ's an makes us like others, civs who all behave the same would make for a very dull game, there personalities are there to enrich the experiance, Toku's personality may make the japan less competive but it's the way he is, it's nice to see civ's using differant strategies an playstyles, how many posts do we see about crazy boudica, or isabella or some other such leader, if the civs all acted the same none of these stories or experiances would be there, and that would be a shame, random personalites is there for those who want more unpredictabilty or differant leader combinations.

However more leader choices is never a bad thing, so i'm all for another leader, personally i think every civ should have at least 2 leader choices
 
oedali said:
I agree. The main reason Tokugawa performs so poorly in almost all games is because he's the one that trades the least among all the AI's.
Click to expand...

Rather then randomise personalities, why not just turn off the Trade Tech option. Not sure how much difference it makes though!!
 
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