Russia - the most overnerfed civ in the game! Should it be improved?

First I'm just going to list all of the Russian nerfs:
- Cossacks (from str 18, 50% vs mounted to str 18, 25% vs mounted) (Vanilla)
- Cossacks again (from str 18, 25% vs mount to str 15, 50% vs mount) (Vanilla)
- Catherine (from Cre/Fin to Cre/Imp) (Warlords)
- Cossacks again (now require Riflery) (BTS)
- Research Institute (pushed even further down the research tree) (BTS)

Some of the above nerfs are justified: first 2 Cossack nerfs, but the rest I'm not sure about. Was Russia really so overpowered that it needed so many nerfs?

Russia has the worst UU and UB in the game. In fact it is totally possible and often better to play a dozen of games as Russia without using either:

- UB comes VERY late in the game, by that time the 2 scientists that it offers are basically useless, you shouldn't be having research difficulties when you research Superconductors and if you do the scientists wont save you. Also with the new research tree it is not possible to beeline for the UB.

- UU is only ever useful in 2 circumstances: you are outteching your enemies by alot, your enemies are using alot of cavalry. On higher difficulty usually neither is the case. Besides riflemen do a decent job at countering cavalry so why would anyone waste precious beakers on 2 more techs (Nationalism and Military tradition) to get Cossacks?

All in all playing as Russia in BTS is probably the most flavourless experience as well as probably the hardest, since there is nothing you can get that your opponents can't.

Sure there are worse UUs and UBs out there, but it is the combination of the two that is important and Russia has the worst one.

I suppose to compensate for this all of Russian leaders have a decent AI but this doesn't help at all if you play as Russia.

So the question is: Should Russia be improved in any way? Suggestions?

I would say give Cossacks +1 str, and move UB to Computers or some other earlier tech. These aren't exactly overpowering but should make it more appealing to use UU/UB.

In Warlords, their UB is one of the best space race UBs. I think there are other civs in a worse position.

Russia has nothing on Korea. They have the worst financial leader(thanks for NOT helping protective...) and now their UU can't even kill anything. Yay...so much for Hwacha rushes. It basically becomes a UU that is entirely a support unit. The only UU that is weaker that I can think of off the top of my head are Camel Archers. Russia is fine. Cre/Imp is a pretty awesome trait combo, and they picked Agg/Ind in Warlords, another nice combo. And Exp/Phi has gotten sexier with time...

Shoot the Moon said:

In Warlords, their UB is one of the best space race UBs. I think there are other civs in a worse position.

Click to expand...

But we are talking about there present situation, which is BTS and not Warlords.

I have to agree that the Russians do need a slight boost.

Russia is fine as is. Hunting and Mining really offsets the late UB and UU. It might be the best opening tech combo in the game. Every one of their leaders have a good combo and are solid at worse (Catherine is probably the weakest). Cossacks are merely good, as opposed to dominating like previously. Still, with them, your opponent's calvary really can't do anything at all without heavy losses.

I think the UB should be sooner, i agree it's to late, cossacks are fine though, mounted units form a huge part of most civ's armies, mid to late game so to have a mounted unit that completely counters the mounted units of other sides in addition to haveing all the normal cavelry benefits is not somthing i would consider weak

Their UB is still well worth having in BtS, and is available as early as it ever was. Just beeline down the electricity - refrigeration - superconductors branch, and you'll have more than enough time for labs to make an impact with any civ. It would be a significant disadvantage for Russia to move it back to Computers, as that is not a required (or even desirable) tech for a tight space race. They may not have much of a GPP impact at that stage, but a couple of free scientists everywhere for the last 10 -15 techs makes a very major difference in research for a space race.

The UU is no longer overpowered, but is still better than a dozen other UU's. The traits were an obvious nerf, but someone's got to get junker traits like Imperialistic.

- Research Institute (pushed even further down the research tree) (BTS)
This isn't a nerf at all. Previous versions (vanilla and warlords) Laboratories required Computers which you got via Electricity>Radio. In BTS Computers now require an extra tech (via Electricity>Radio>Plastics). The labs have been moved to Superconductors which still requires just 2 techs (via Electricity>Refrigeration) so its no further down the tech tree than it was before. Superconductors require Computers OR Refrigeration.

I think just giving Cossacks a bonus against rifleman (e.g 25% that would put cossacks superior to rifeleman in a firefight). Would do it.

I think the UB really does need to be moved forward there i agree, or make it realy chaep or something, so you can get it fast when you FINALLY reach the right tech.

Calder makes a good point, computers are now hugely hard to early teck too because you require tecks from 2 seperate branches but you can still early teck to superconductors via refrigeration, i'l have to have a look at both BTS an warlords teck charts an see roughly how this change has panned out in more detail

Its pretty big change. You can use labs for the almost every modern age tech and without obsoleting any wonders.
And I think the 25%vs mounted change for vanilla only made into the changelog, not the actual game.

Lance of Llanwy said:

Russia has nothing on Korea. They have the worst financial leader(thanks for NOT helping protective...) and now their UU can't even kill anything. Yay...so much for Hwacha rushes. It basically becomes a UU that is entirely a support unit. The only UU that is weaker that I can think of off the top of my head are Camel Archers. Russia is fine. Cre/Imp is a pretty awesome trait combo, and they picked Agg/Ind in Warlords, another nice combo. And Exp/Phi has gotten sexier with time...

Click to expand...

Yes, statswise Hwacha is probably worse, but have there been any games when you haven't used catapults? The problem with cossacks is that you are unlikely to use them. Why go for a cavalry rush if you can just as successfully do a riflemen rush 2 techs earlier? So unless you are playing on a low difficulty setting where you can "pawn everyone with cossacks" you simply wont use them.

My problem with Russia is that it is possible to play dozens of games without ever wanting to use either UU or UB. (Emperor)

Calder said:

- Research Institute (pushed even further down the research tree) (BTS)
This isn't a nerf at all. Previous versions (vanilla and warlords) Laboratories required Computers which you got via Electricity>Radio. In BTS Computers now require an extra tech (via Electricity>Radio>Plastics). The labs have been moved to Superconductors which still requires just 2 techs (via Electricity>Refrigeration) so its no further down the tech tree than it was before. Superconductors require Computers OR Refrigeration.

Click to expand...

This is a good point, I have to admit that I've never tried it this way, so I don't know how well it would work out.
However, if I am behind in tech I always go for the Internet, which helps to catchup. And if I'm ahead in tech I go for plastics and radio just to get the wonders, so that nobody else does. This makes the refrigeration route pretty undesirable in both cases.

BYC said:

Russia is fine as is. Hunting and Mining really offsets the late UB and UU. It might be the best opening tech combo in the game. Every one of their leaders have a good combo and are solid at worse (Catherine is probably the weakest). Cossacks are merely good, as opposed to dominating like previously. Still, with them, your opponent's calvary really can't do anything at all without heavy losses.

Click to expand...

You're making it sound as if cavalry is always used. In BTS many if not most people don't even bother with cavalry. And the jump from riflery to assembly line is very quick, meaning that cossacks have a very short lifespan and they can't be upgraded until gunships, which is pretty long.
I agree with you on the opening tech combo though.

Lance of Llanwy said:

Russia has nothing on Korea. They have the worst financial leader(thanks for NOT helping protective...) and now their UU can't even kill anything. Yay...so much for Hwacha rushes. It basically becomes a UU that is entirely a support unit. The only UU that is weaker that I can think of off the top of my head are Camel Archers. Russia is fine. Cre/Imp is a pretty awesome trait combo, and they picked Agg/Ind in Warlords, another nice combo. And Exp/Phi has gotten sexier with time...

Click to expand...

I haven't tried Wang since BTS came out, though he is one of my favorites... Does the +50% vs melee increase the escape chances of the hwacha? If so, I really don't think that hurts them all that bad...

As for Wang, he's made to have a chance at an early religion, his UB is solid, and protective isn't that bad (hell, it's even quite good if you play more defensively and don't want to be forced to play the military resource grabbing game). In Warlords (not sure about now, but it still SHOULD work I'd imagine) I often fought resourceless wars with Wang - hwacha and longbowmen were quite formidable together.

Edit: Actually, disregard what I'm saying... I'll give Wang a try in BTS tonight and give him an updated review.

0R4NG3 said:

My problem with Russia is that it is possible to play dozens of games without ever wanting to use either UU or UB. (Emperor)

Click to expand...

You have a good point here. Russia has become rather flavorless.

I liked it in early versions of CivIV, when I shook in fear as soon as Russia's started producing Cossacks.
When I had a game where I was near Catherine, I always prepared to take her out as soon as possible because I didn't want to have to deal with her Cossacks.
It was a bit like Rome's Praetorian in the Ancient era: take him out beforehand or prepare to defend yourself.
Since Russia experienced tremendous expansion in the 18th-19th century, I think it is fitting that they get one of the UU in this period of history...

The Cossack is a good pillager neutralizer as most pillagers are cavalry(mounted units) and with an extra movement point it's more mobile than riflemen and able to get back into a city rather than ending it's turn on the frontline. But other than that I agree it's not the best UU. In fact my only game as the Russians in BTS (Stalin) didn't even see me build one. Rifles are the renaissance unit for me now, much easier to get than Cavalry.

The UB doesn't bother me at all, the way I see it is that it boosts your sapceship production and gives you 2 free scientists so in a spacerace is pretty darn valuable IMO

50_dollar_bag said:

The UB doesn't bother me at all, the way I see it is that it boosts your sapceship production and gives you 2 free scientists so in a spacerace is pretty darn valuable IMO

Click to expand...

The spaceship production is the same as the Lab, so no bonuses there. The only bonus is the 2 free scientists, which is only useful if there are alot of techs to research and by the time you get the UB there usually aren't.

Catherine as a AI is always a nightmare to me. I will get a headache if I met her in the game.
Russian UB is useless, but its UU still strong, even in BTS.

lol you know if you want you can go through the XMLs and makes changes to the game yourself, I personally think the Cossack should regain their 18 str but lose the 50% vs Mounted units. They'd be like the Prats or Cataphract and since they now require two techs, it's easy to prepare for them with well promoted Formation Rifles, especially since there are a lot of Leaders with either Agg, Prot or Cha Traits.

Cossacks are still nice to have, if you are fast enough to build them (which you should be), then they devastate knights, and destroy enemy cavalry.

I think many people play not on marathon, judging from all those "counter just around the corner".

Usually the emerge of Cavalry means violent death to my neighbours, who send hordes of Knight against them since they themselves have no cav or rifles themselves.

And when they get cav, Cossacks have +50%

Its one of those units i would have built anyways, and getting a free bonus along the way, why not?