BTS Roleplaying Challenge: Sitting Bull

BTS Roleplaying Challenge: Sitting Bull

Greetings. Right off the bat, let us all bow down now and acknowledge the master of the ALC genre, and general Civilization bon vivant, Sisiutil.

The idea of the Roleplaying Challenge is to challenge us not neccessarily by raising the difficulty level, but by giving ourselves a handicap by “roleplaying” the civilization in question. At the start I will identify the roleplaying particulars. I am open to suggestions on other handicaps. For additional roleplaying flavor, I will add a short narrative at the beginning of each round. I anticipate posting a round every day or two.

For this game, I have selected Native America. Our leader is Sitting Bull, who is Philosophical and Protective. The unique unit is the Dog Warrior, an axeman replacement with resourceless construction, a base strength of 4, and a +100% bonus vs. melee units. Our unique building is the Totem Pole, a monument replacement that grants +3 XP to all archery units built in the city. We begin the game with Agriculture and Fishing.

Native America, as represented in the game, is obviously an amalgamation of dozens of North American tribes. For the purposes of this game, I will assume an idealized version of tribal life – a holistic oneness with nature, a simple, minimalist approach to life, and the ability to unleash sudden, savage violence when provoked. Obviously, as technology progresses, the Native Americans will have to adapt.

Based on my Polyanna vision of native American ethos, I have therefore identified the following roleplaying handicaps for this game. I apologize in advance for offending anyone, as the following paints the picture of a politically correct, stereotypical, Hollywoodesque “noble savage."

The rules:

• 
  
  [*]No slavery.
  [*]No chopping of forest or jungle unless there is a resource underneath.
  [*]No wars of aggression without roleplaying provocation (this shouldn’t be too hard ).
  [*]Adoption of the Environmentalism civic when available.
  [*]A “once bitten twice shy” brand of diplomacy.
  [*]We will not attempt the Space Victory.
  [*]only as many roads as are necessary to connect settlements and resources.​

Because slavery and wood-chopping are so integral to many strategies, I have lowered the difficulty to Prince.

This game’s settings: Prince difficulty, fractal map, standard size and settings, epic speed, ancient start. (Oh, and I use Blue Marble for the maps … )

The starting screenshots ..







Chief Slobbering Bear raised his weathered face to the clear sky as his tribe, the proud Cawak, looked on anxiously. Minutes passed in silence. At length, he knelt and scooped up dirt from the small clearing.

Laughing Deer was worried. Her husband was clearly lost in thought, pondering the unthinkable -- settling the tribe. The Cawak had always lived from the land, and yet always returned to this glade as a place of gathering and of guidance, and the lake-fish and wild boars nearby gave ample sustenance and leathers. But the years had brought new discoveries to the tribe, and food could be had by staying in one place. Farming meant the end of the wandering life. New traditions would be forged, she told herself.

The Chief motioned to Baying Dog, the grizzled shaman, and addressed his people. "We come here for peace and for renewal of our spirit. This place is truly the home of the Cawak. We will ask the Great Spirit for his guidance."

Baying Dog nodded and slowly twisted, dancing in a small circle while chanting ...

The saved game file:

View attachment Slobbering Bear BC-4000.CivBeyondSwordSave

Preliminary Analysis:

My inclination is to settle in place.

Not chopping or using Slavery means several things in general:

* slower city growth and fewer farms
* less commerce from fewer cottages
* better health from more trees
* no ability to rush-produce means careful planning is necessary
* no ability to remove unhappy citizens

Techwise, we will want masonry, the wheel, and mysticism for Stonehenge, which will give us free Totem Poles in every city. We will also want hunting and archery to build scouts and archers. Animal husbandry will be crucial to getting some food surplus. Getting a religion will be important, and I'm probably going to shoot for Monotheism. Between Stonehenge and a religion, the Tribe will have nice border expansion. Sailing & lighthouses will be important to maximize food output in the capitol.

Some of the "standard" techs will be frankly less useful to us in this game, or will be important for different reasons. Since we're not whipping or chopping, Bronze Working's only appeal to us is to build Dog Warriors and Spearmen, and for the hammer bonus of mining a copper tile.

Having the stone nearby means we should seriously consider all of the Stone wonders, including the Great Wall and the Pyramids. Being Philosophical means double the Great Person points, and since we won't be clearing forests for farms, a Great Person farm is going to be harder to create. Better to get our Great People from wonders, unless we get a high-food site that meets our RP requirements. The problem with pursuing multiple wonders is that, even with stone, lacking Slavery or wood chopping means we will have to build them the hard way, which will necessarily use a lot of turns.

slobberinbear said:

Not chopping or using Slavery means several things in general:
* less commerce from fewer cottages
* only as many roads as are necessary to connect settlements and resources.

Click to expand...

especially given that you can't even make roads over tiles that you really don't want a forest or jungle to spread on, but don't have the time/tech to do any other improvement on yet. non-river grassland surrounded by jungle pre-CS pre-pottery for example.

you're allowed to place said roads strategically with future railroads in mind right?

definitely too hard for me! but i think you'll have fun, he's an interesting leader and the UB is really spiffy. good luck

Just to expand on what KMad said, does "no chopping" also applies to Jungles, not only to Forests?

A “once bitten twice shy” brand of diplomacy.

Click to expand...

I'm a bit slow this morning. Can you translate this into game terms?

slobberinbear said:

The rules:

• 
  
  [*]No slavery.
  [*]No chopping of forest or jungle unless there is a resource underneath.
  ​

Click to expand...

Too hard for me without chopping and whipping as I usually play Noble.
I really like the Roleplay idea though - when will you be starting the next / Should I help constructing the next scenario?

Also, what about checkpoints?

Yes, we can use roads to link resources and cities. As few as possible.

Yes, the no chopping rule includes jungle. We are to be one with Nature as much as possible.

"Once bitten twice shy" means that we will be trusting at first, but if we are burned we will never trust that civilization again. Sort of a "fool me once, shame on you -- fool me twice, shame on me" type philosophy. I'm just full of homilies this morning.

As far as checkpoints, I'll be posting progress through the rounds like our Revered Leader bowdown: Sisiutil) does in the ALCs. Of course you are welcome to play along but put spoilers in the spoiler window.

If you want to start one up, go for it. This is just an idea I've been toying with and I thought it would be fun to play through it on CFC.

Since I will be going on a canoe trip from wednesday to friday, I will probably try to make one up saturday, unless I have lots of unexpected homework .

I wish you all good luck.

Just to be clear: I'm going to play this like an ALC game. I want your input and critique. There's no me without you. Insert other audience-feedback cliche here.

So let me hear from you about research, starting location, and early strategy!

A very interesting idea, good luck and have fun.

slobberinbear said:

"Once bitten twice shy" means that we will be trusting at first, but if we are burned we will never trust that civilization again. Sort of a "fool me once, shame on you -- fool me twice, shame on me" type philosophy. I'm just full of homilies this morning.

Click to expand...

That tells nothing of what it means in game terms. Game terms would be something like "we never declare war - if war is declared on us, there is no peace until one side is eliminated". Or it could be a milder "if somebody makes a demand on us, we never trade with them again. Or....

ah i'd thought it was an LHC type thing, i was half awake . i'll ramble at ya, you have been warned!

if my fog-gazing is right, you'll have only one land tile in your capital that's not a forest other than the stone and the pigs if you settle in place. also no rivers on any of those forests, so lumbermills won't give you any commerce. oh, forest preserves will give 2 commerce each once you go to environmentalism, cool. that's a very low commerce capital, but coastal so trade routes will help.

if my math is right (it's probably not, i don't typically add up food), you're at -2 food in the cross we can see now working every tile. there are 3 we can't see, but i think just one chance for a flatlands-type food resource, maybe deer on one of the 2 forests? and if the flatlands is corn/rice/wheat, we can't ever get freshwater to it given what we can see, unless we want to put a farm on the stone. "No chopping of forest or jungle unless there is a resource underneath." doesn't include an exception for "improving resources on other tiles" the way it's currently written, yikers.

anyway, a lot of your cities will be slow-growing and low on commerce, so i'd not be inclined to lose more time hunting for a better spot.

can we pray do a luxury-metals-dance ritual for gold or gems in a second city to give us some commerce before we know mysticism?

VoiceOfUnreason said:

That tells nothing of what it means in game terms. Game terms would be something like "we never declare war - if war is declared on us, there is no peace until one side is eliminated". Or it could be a milder "if somebody makes a demand on us, we never trade with them again. Or....

Click to expand...

I'll be more specific and tailor it to Native America more clearly.

Here are some proposed "RP rules" for diplomacy. I'm open to suggestions.

slobberinbear said:

* If war is declared on us, there is no peace unless the other side pays tribute.

Click to expand...

vassals make that complicated. if they capitulate is that tribute?

and if they capitulate to someone else in whichever circumstances it is that put you at peace with them right away, are you then required to declare war on them and their new master ASAP? i'd guess not, since new master may be a friend.

KMadCandy said:

ah i'd thought it was an LHC type thing, i was half awake . i'll ramble at ya, you have been warned!

if my fog-gazing is right, you'll have only one land tile in your capital that's not a forest other than the stone and the pigs if you settle in place. also no rivers on any of those forests, so lumbermills won't give you any commerce. oh, forest preserves will give 2 commerce each once you go to environmentalism, cool. that's a very low commerce capital, but coastal so trade routes will help.

Click to expand...

Yes, we'll have to be nice and get currency going for trade. We could even build the Colossus, perhaps a giant bronze buffalo rearing up to greet all who enter Cawak harbor ...

if my math is right, you're at -2 food in the cross we can see now working every tile. there are 3 we can't see, but i think just one chance for a flatlands-type food resource, maybe deer on one of the 2 forests? and if the flatlands is corn/rice/wheat, we can't ever get freshwater to it given what we can see, unless we want to put a farm on the stone. "No chopping of forest or jungle unless there is a resource underneath." doesn't include an exception for "improving resources on other tiles" the way it's currently written, yikers.

anyway, a lot of your cities will be slow-growing and low on commerce, so i'd not be inclined to lose more time hunting for a better spot.

Click to expand...

My thinking too. The tile 2N 1W of the settler looks like grassland ... perhaps the famed Crouching Tiger, Hidden Resource.

can we pray do a luxury-metals-dance ritual for gold or gems in a second city to give us some commerce before we know mysticism?

Click to expand...

Well the floodplains to the southwest would make an excellent cottage spam tribal housing area. Hopefully that will add to the coffers. *EDIT* I'm also counting on founding a religion and using a great prophet to build the shrine for extra income.

Oh, and I'll be naming all of the cities (other than the capitol) after real tribes.

I'll play the first round tonight. I'll stop when I have a good dotmappable area and have met the locals.

Good idea. A few comments about late game decisions as I would envision the Native Americans.

1) Nuclear weapoms are never to be built, let alone used.
2) Once assembly line is teched, no building can be built without sufficiently available health. Meaning you are running a +1 health, you cannot build a coal plant before public transportation.
3) Coal mines should be destroyed and not used once oil is obtained.
4) Forresrt preserves must be built in any forrest that lacks a lumbermill. Better yet, forbid lumbermills.
5) If the UN is built and you are one of the two candidates, environmentalism must be the first proposal to the UN. You must break ties (maybe even declare war) with anyone who openly defies that vote.

All this assuming you get that far.

Im into this whole idea of role play to make the game harder, rather than going up a level. I like the concept very much,

but, what does this mean ?

slobberinbear said:

No wars of aggression without roleplaying provocation (this shouldn’t be too hard ).

Click to expand...

Can we declare or not?

What victory condition do you envisage?

mice said:

Im into this whole idea of role play to make the game harder, rather than going up a level. I like the concept very much,

but, what does this mean ?


Can we declare or not?

What victory condition do you envisage?

Click to expand...

I would envision that you cannot go to war over a missing resource, or just to get more land.

On the other hand if a creative AI is planting cities to deliberate infringe on your territory or culturally try to steal a valuable resource, Sitting Bull should be allowed to defend his land.

mice said:

Can we declare or not?

Click to expand...

Yes. Let me spell out the conditions as I see them. Again, I am open to suggestions here. The limits on war were more for RP purposes. I'm sure we can justify just about any war.

So here's a simple rule:


Everyone ok with that rule?

What victory condition do you envisage?

Click to expand...

Anything but space. I can't see the Native Americans wanting to leave Earth. I have not disabled this condition, though, as the AI may choose to pursue it.