what leader trait combinations are missing?

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tomaalimosh

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I did a quick calculation in order to see how many combinations are not found, and got this:

52 leaders (from what I have counted), and 11 traits, which means 55 possible combinations of 2 distinct ones ( (11*(11-1)/2)

I know that there are some leaders with the same traits, so that leaves a few combinations unavailable.

Now... other than the famed phi/ind combo that everyone says would ... bring un-balance to the force... what other combos are missing?
 
Peng Qi said:
It could be balanced with an awful UU and UB, but it would forever be broken on unrestricted leaders. Imagine a Ind-Phi Rome with forums in every city and a specialist economy.
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Yeah, I think there is a very good reason for not having this trait combination. Not sure why the other two don't exist, too weak maybe?
 
Rissiel said:
Yeah, I think there is a very good reason for not having this trait combination. Not sure why the other two don't exist, too weak maybe?
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Just not used. They're definately not weak by any imagination - Protective may be a little weak, but organised and charismatic are top-tier traits and creative isn't too shabby either.
 
Organized - Protective

I think this one is very balanced and fair... nothing particularly special, but give it to a civ with a decent UU and UB

Creative - Charismatic

This is really quite a strong combination and would become one of the preferred trait selections I would guess.... but it would easily fit with a lesser ranked civ.

Industrious - Philosophical

The only one that would really suit my play down to the ground... but one I totally appreciate is just too powerful for inclusion. I don't even think the UB or UU can counter this - I remember someone suggesting Spain... but really, give me these traits and I dont need a UU or UB.
 
I don't think ind/phi is anymore powerful than char/agg or fin/org.

Creative-charismatic is a strange one........ do you build the monuments for the happiness, when you don't really need the culture? It'd make for some interesting games I think.

Pro/org would be alright too..... like spear thrower said, give it a decent UU or UB, and it'd make for a good civ.
 
Spearthrower said:
Industrious - Philosophical

The only one that would really suit my play down to the ground... but one I totally appreciate is just too powerful for inclusion. I don't even think the UB or UU can counter this - I remember someone suggesting Spain... but really, give me these traits and I dont need a UU or UB.
Click to expand...

Yeah that would be mad fun wouldn't it, and I don't think it would be too bad of a balance issue... Perhaps the synergy involved is too much? No, because they included Protective-Aggressive (see: Tokugawa's Gunpowder units) and that is argueably more overpowered in a cheaper way (you can't overrun the enemy with a few extra Great People).

I also have to argue that it wouldn't be anymore broken or unbalanced on Unresicted Leaders than any of the other possible combos... Boudica of Rome and Tokugawa of English, French or Ethiopia or America come to mind. Also Lincoln of Egypt.

Getting +4 Great Prophet Points for a 1/2 price Stonehenge might be overpowered in the early game? Maybe there's just too many ways to abuse it...
 
I modded the XML for some of the leaders whom I gave traits that I thought were more appropriate from a historical perspective, but still only used one trait combo per leader. I ended up using a couple of those trait combo's, including IND/PHI - and I don't recall it being particularly overpowering. It's a good combo, but I don't recall the AI Civ playing that combo being extremely threatening. Even when I played that combo - sure there's a strat that goes with it, but again, it's not game breaking. (I can't recall off the top of my head which leader I gave it to, though.)
 
Silence101 said:
I modded the XML for some of the leaders whom I gave traits that I thought were more appropriate from a historical perspective, but still only used one trait combo per leader. I ended up using a couple of those trait combo's, including IND/PHI - and I don't recall it being particularly overpowering. It's a good combo, but I don't recall the AI Civ playing that combo being extremely threatening. Even when I played that combo - sure there's a strat that goes with it, but again, it's not game breaking. (I can't recall off the top of my head which leader I gave it to, though.)
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Give it to me and I assure you, I will break the game with it!! :D
 
Spearthrower said:
Give it to me and I assure you, I will break the game with it!! :D
Click to expand...

Ditto. I'll have the craziest Great Person city anyone has ever seen :). I foresee a strategy involving the Pyramids chopped to begin with for the GE points... that'll prepare a civ for a nice wonderspam.
 
Like I said previously, I don't remember who I gave IND/PHI to, but I did give Gilgamesh the CRE/CHA combo. (I mean honestly, why did he have protective in the first place?) Gilgamesh has become a real powerhouse in many of my games now though - I wonder if that's boarderline overpowered.
 
Spearthrower said:
Industrious - Philosophical

The only one that would really suit my play down to the ground... but one I totally appreciate is just too powerful for inclusion. I don't even think the UB or UU can counter this - I remember someone suggesting Spain... but really, give me these traits and I dont need a UU or UB.
Click to expand...
What if the UU and UB were just worse than normal units and buildings of their type? :p
 
Peng Qi said:
What if the UU and UB were just worse than normal units and buildings of their type? :p
Click to expand...

Umm, I don't think it's THAT unbalanced if its unbalanced at all. Other trait combos are more just as synergistic and powerful if used properly. Spearthrower is just pointing out that he knows exactly how to make proper use of that combo... I'm sure if he were a warmonger he would have been saying the same about Boudica.
 
It would be Really good if they added a 2-3 more leaders to fill up those spots.

The real problem with Ind Phi is

Wonders->Great People->Tech lead->easier Wonders

but they have Agg-Cha, and Cha-Imp (I was pumping out level 6 units from my GG settled territory)

But Pro-Org, and Cha-Cre just happened to be missed.

[I personally think that one should be added to the Native Americans to represent the Iroquois] (as for the constant complaints about Japan, that's merely a problem with the Toku AI.) but one for the Nat. Am. and one for some other civ.
 
Cvntpumeler said:
Other trait combos are more just as synergistic and powerful if used properly. Spearthrower is just pointing out that he knows exactly how to make proper use of that combo... I'm sure if he were a warmonger he would have been saying the same about Boudica.
Click to expand...

Yeah exactly - I know Boudicca is a war goddess.... and I admit that I don't usually play to leverage wars to win the game.

But as an aside, on larger maps and maps with lots of separate islands... Boudicca's traits don't always help enough.... and they certainly don't help your economy or technology (unless you hold the world to ransom). Her traits are stronger the smaller the map and the more geographically approachable other nations are.

While Ind+Phi it's largely irrelevent what type of map it is and what size it is... I am still going to break the game!! :goodjob:
 
Boudica have an UB and an UU that are really not good. Sure, probably not the worse, and can be good use in certain situations, but...
Although the UB gives a free promo, which in turn is good for unlocking more promotions and making Cha trait even better. But then again, combat I do it...

Ah well.

And yes, give me phi/Ind any day and I show you! :D


< builder
 
Silence101 said:
I modded the XML for some of the leaders whom I gave traits that I thought were more appropriate from a historical perspective, but still only used one trait combo per leader. I ended up using a couple of those trait combo's, including IND/PHI - and I don't recall it being particularly overpowering. It's a good combo, but I don't recall the AI Civ playing that combo being extremely threatening. Even when I played that combo - sure there's a strat that goes with it, but again, it's not game breaking. (I can't recall off the top of my head which leader I gave it to, though.)
Click to expand...

Could you post here what leaders you changed? I'm interested in seeing it...

I was surprised that Cha/Cre did not make it in. A unique monument would be appropriate for them, maybe, so that monuments have greater purpose. Or, just leave that off and think of monuments as a cheap way to get +1 happiness.
 
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