to get religion without risk

hey there. ive tried this a few times on high difficulty settings and seems to work everytime with good points so thought id share,


typically i try to go for specialist economy style of play. but i try to beeline for writing for the early beakers from libraries (makes big difference over length of game), picking up aggriculture and/or wheel on way to aid growth.

then i go for bronze working for chopping. by this point the first 2 religions have been founded (mainly as some civs start with religious techs).

so now i go for priesthood and the oracle. chopping the oracle means you can get it very quickly and then the tech of choice is code of laws (a fairly expensive one at this point in game for FREE)...this gives you religion and doesnt mean you have to beeline the religion techs early messing over growth/science

how can you get oracle after literature is discovered? O_o doesn't sound like something you can accomplish on emperor+ to me... Col is a very popular choice for oracle. Personaly i like monarchy better because happiness is so important though.

I have a similar type of gambit, nothing new I am sure and it seams to work well (Up to emperor on BTS, I have not tried anything higher). Works best if you start with mining or mysticism and have some sort of commerce and trees.

I will get the economy and/or food up real fast (fishing/agriculture and workers/workboats). Build as many mines as possible. Get one city settled (preferably near copper, or at worse horse if you go down AH). Chop out/build Stonehenge (the AI goes after this fast) while teching meditation and priesthood. Once priesthood is done and you have Stonehenge, start on the oracle while teching writing (alternatively you can be teching pottery and shoot for metal casting), finishing it by chopping any remaining forrests. Generally the AI is slower on the oracle than Stonehenge, I have lost stonehemge in BTS but never oracle if I start it in a reasonable amount of time.

The oracle and Stonehenge gives us 4 GP points, which means 25 turns at normal speed or 75 at marathon (which I play).

If you took COL and founded confucism with the oracle, you'll have a shrine VERY fast, and a great economy and spy network with very early courthouses. You will be able to expand very agressively without tanking the economy for a while.

If you took metal casting with the oracle, you can bulb theology with the prophet and still get your religion although you have to wait for the shrine. You will have access to building the AP, and likely can finish it first since you have the early forge. At this point you should be beelining for alphabet and trade these 2 free and expensive techs to at least fill in COL and possible currency. This is more risky and depends on the AIs.

The kicked in either above setting is that you cannot do an axe-rush a neighbor, and open yourself up to barbarian problems.

oyzar said:

how can you get oracle after literature is discovered? O_o doesn't sound like something you can accomplish on emperor+ to me... Col is a very popular choice for oracle. Personaly i like monarchy better because happiness is so important though.

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I think the OP's point is he's teching towards Literature, not getting by the oracle.

I think a religion and temples are as good as military through monarchy early on. If you house more than 2 units in a city for happiness your going to have some serious maintenance issues.

Likewise, the forge gets +1 happiness per gold/silver/gem, so if you have one of these the metal casting slingshot may be preferable.

I have done the same lots of times and have faced the following issues¨

1. If you do not find copper, iron working is a priority and then if no iron rush for machinery (that is why I prefer Metal casting than Codes of law)

2. If you are not Industrious and/or have marble, early oracle is expensive and lengthy. You have to tech 2 or 3 otherwise useless early techs + commit your capital for alot of turns.

3. On Emperor level land settling is even faster, too many turns on early wonders and you will have no land left.

So after a lot of games, now I only do it when I am Indusrious or have marble.

Best leader for me is HC of the Incas as he starts with Mystisysm, Quenchas can hold their own against barb archers, and is Fin + Ind = fast early teching + wonders

Indiansmoke said:

I have done the same lots of times and have faced the following issues¨

1. If you do not find copper, iron working is a priority and then if no iron rush for machinery (that is why I prefer Metal casting than Codes of law)

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I 100% agree. These "religion gambits" go out the window if I have no copper or horse. Tech archery and WW, MC from oracle if possible.

2. If you are not Industrious and/or have marble, early oracle is expensive and lengthy. You have to tech 2 or 3 otherwise useless early techs + commit your capital for alot of turns.

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Expensive, yes but worth it. That's why I say chop it out unless you're looking at an early axe-rush. A free valuable tech that early is worth it.

3. On Emperor level land settling is even faster, too many turns on early wonders and you will have no land left.

So after a lot of games, now I only do it when I am Indusrious or have marble.

Best leader for me is HC of the Incas as he starts with Mystisysm, Quenchas can hold their own against barb archers, and is Fin + Ind = fast early teching + wonders

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Sometimes yes, sometimes no, depends on the map and AIs. Any AI that overexpands with eventually suffer in either military or economy.

I think the above work gambits work with all leaders. The COL slingshot was pretty valuable and fairly easy to do worth CHurchhill. Greta having the monuments for the +1 happiness, and the stock exchange made the shrine much more lucrative.

thomson_2001 said:

hey there. ive tried this a few times on high difficulty settings and seems to work everytime with good points so thought id share,


typically i try to go for specialist economy style of play. but i try to beeline for literature for the early beakers (makes big difference over length of game), picking up aggriculture and/or wheel on way to aid growth.

then i go for bronze working for chopping. by this point the first 2 religions have been founded (mainly as some civs start with religious techs).

so now i go for priesthood and the oracle. chopping the oracle means you can get it very quickly and then the tech of choice is code of laws (a fairly expensive one at this point in game for FREE)...this gives you religion and doesnt mean you have to beeline the religion techs early messing over growth/science

Click to expand...

In my most recent game, on Prince, I was able to found Christianity in 1440 BC. It spread easier than Judaism that I also founded, since I got a free missionary This also meant I could easily (and leisurely) build the AP. Plus, the prereqs for Theology tend to be easier to research.

Code of Laws = 350 beakers; courthouses, and some later religions.
Theology = 500 beakers, and access to one of the most important wonders of the medieval period; also can access Paper w/o Civil Service. This is one less tech to research to get those Universities; then it will be cheap.

I researched Writing literally 1 turn before Oracle was complete, and had the other prereqs for Theology done. This game has been a beauty... founding 5 of 7 religions (all but the first 2), didn't start with Mysticism.

So, I don't understand why the big emphasis on getting CoL with the Oracle instead of Theology? The prereqs for Theology are almost as easy to get, and the cost is much higher. I've never won above Prince, but why isn't this a good strategy?

Sam

ButSam said:

In my most recent game, on Prince, I was able to found Christianity in 1280 BC. It spread easier than Judaism that I also founded, since I got a free missionary This also meant I could easily (and leisurely) build the AP. Plus, the prereqs for Theology tend to be easier to research.

Code of Laws = 350 beakers
Theology = 500 beakers, and access to one of the most important wonders of the medieval period; also can access Paper w/o Civil Service (handy if you have built the Pyramids, which diminish CS's importance somewhat).

I researched Writing literally 1 turn before Oracle was complete, and had the other prereqs for Theology done. This game has been a beauty... founding 5 of 7 religions (all but the first 2), didn't start with Mysticism.

So, I don't understand why the big emphasis on getting CoL with the Oracle instead of Theology? The prereqs for Theology are almost as easy to get, and the cost is much higher. I've never won above Prince, but why isn't this a good strategy?

Sam

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Which leader did you use??

Nothing wrong with getting theology with the oracle, good deal!!!!

I play at monarch/emperor. I never get monotheism in time generally, and half the time don't have masonry either. COL is cheaper and does not open the AP, but it offers a civic (caste), religion, and one of the best building (courthouse), and a weak wonder. I think the courthouses are the attractive thing, and theology can be bulbed which COL cannot so you have a shot at both depending how many GPs you get and whether you opt for the Conf. shrine.

ButSam said:

In my most recent game, on Prince, I was able to found Christianity in 1280 BC. It spread easier than Judaism that I also founded, since I got a free missionary This also meant I could easily (and leisurely) build the AP. Plus, the prereqs for Theology tend to be easier to research.

Code of Laws = 350 beakers; courthouses, and some later religions.
Theology = 500 beakers, and access to one of the most important wonders of the medieval period; also can access Paper w/o Civil Service. This is one less tech to research to get those Universities; then it will be cheap.

I researched Writing literally 1 turn before Oracle was complete, and had the other prereqs for Theology done. This game has been a beauty... founding 5 of 7 religions (all but the first 2), didn't start with Mysticism.

So, I don't understand why the big emphasis on getting CoL with the Oracle instead of Theology? The prereqs for Theology are almost as easy to get, and the cost is much higher. I've never won above Prince, but why isn't this a good strategy?

Sam

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Picking up CoL with the Oracle after beeling BW is a common strategy - I'm honestly not sure how well it would work at higher levels, but it's a fairly good gambit on Prince.

Using the same tech route, the only additional tech you need to pick up for Theology is Monotheism, which if you tried for Judaism, you may have already. It's a second, be it more expensive, tech route to Priesthood to get the Oracle. (Edit: Remember that Monotheism also requires Masonry.)

I see a couple disadvantages to going this route... the most obvious being that it's slower. The bottom line is that you need more techs researched by the time the Oracle is built in order to get Theology. This could cost you the Oracle all together, but this obstacle can be overcome by prioritizing and managing your production. The second disadvantage has to do with early REXing - CoL is an important tech to help manage the expenses of a small expanding empire. Though Theology does come with a great wonder, it offers little to help manage the expenses of REXing or early war, which can be very important to the early game. There's always the income that comes from building the religious building in the Holy City, but this requires you to have a great prophet, and also requires a rapidly spreading religion to see any great returns on the investment. CoL has a much larger initial impact on your finances, where researching Theology can often be put off for awhile and you can still come back to researching it later and have a good chance at building the AP if you just can't live without it.

Edit: Picking up Theology with the Oracle might make more sense if you're running an SE, where the commerce you're spending on early expansion and war isn't also fueling your research - CoL may not be quite as important as early... still an important tech, though.

However, I'd be the first to admit that I have occasionally picked up Theology with the Oracle. If circumstances allow it, for the tech price, it's not a bad play. Generally, I think I'd rather have CoL or Metal Casting though.

thomson_2001 said:

typically i try to go for specialist economy style of play. but i try to beeline for literature for the early beakers (makes big difference over length of game), picking up aggriculture and/or wheel on way to aid growth.

then i go for bronze working for chopping

Click to expand...

madscientist said:

I think the OP's point is he's teching towards Literature, not getting by the oracle.

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i think the OP means writing/libraries not literature. he's getting this tech before BW. and you don't any "early beakers" from lit unless you build the GLib.

Agreed about Courthouses being very good. I guess one of the things that made it even more attractive in my situation was that I started on my own mini-continent (a bit larger than an island, but not too big). Thus, I was not in a race to expand or build military. I also was not in a race for military techs beyond BW (since I didn't know I was isolated at the time I researched BW).

I have not won above Prince, but I can't imagine it is too terribly important whether you build a Courthouse in 1440 BC or in 625 BC, when I discovered Code of Laws through normal research.

I am Ragnar (Agg/Fin); I don't know all of my opponents yet, but I am on a Standard map, and so far I have met Kublai Khan (Buddhist), Qin Shi Huang, and Hannibal. Someone else founded Hinduism, but I haven't met them yet.

I recall being able to research CoL relatively soon after I built the Oracle, although I don't recall the details. I do remember I finished Writing literally the turn before the Oracle.

Oops, I messed up too in my remembering. In checking game logs, I actually founded Christianity in 1440 BC, with someone who doesn't start with Mysticism Is 1480 BC too late to have built the Oracle on higher difficulty levels?

Sam

ooops sorry, meant writing early. for early libraries and it also aloows CoL to be taken with the oracle

Researching Code of Laws and grabbing Philosophy as your free tech is also pretty good too, since you found a least one religion and get a head start on the Liberalism race. With a specialist economy, it also opens up the civic of pacifism.


However, it is pretty hard to pull this off.