CivIV 102: Running the Specialist Economy at Prince

In CivIV 101 I demonstrated the capital based cottage economy. Since specialist economies are also very strong, this game will focus more on the specialist economy (SE from here on).

I have not yet started the game, but have chosen the leader, Pericles of Greece, and have some preliminary comments about his traits, Philisophical and Creative.

Pericles is in my estimation of the strongest SE leaders.

Lets take a look at how his traits work together along with some of the inherent strengths of a SE.

Philisophical is of course an ideal trait for the SE. Lots of specialists means lot of Great People Points (GPP), and philisophical doubles GPP generation. Cheap universities can also be quite powerful. Cheap universities makes it much easier to get Oxford built.

Creative is not the most powerful trait, but it has great synergy with philisophical, and is more powerful with a SE. Let's look at why this is. I really like the half price buildings of creative ... library, theatre, colosseum. Cheap libraries are excellent for getting an early SE going, as they are the only way to run scientists before caste system. The cheap theatre and colosseum combined with a SE allow an easy way to get a lot of happiness for cities relatively early in the game. When running a SE that gets its beakers primarily from scientist specialists, the cost of running the culture slider above 0 is greatly reduced. There is because there is less commerce generated than in other economies. With a theatre and a colosseum, running the culture slider at 20% gives 5 happy. And Greece's UB, the Odeon, is a colosseum that gives an extra happy. Just building a theatre, colosseum, and running the culture slider at 20 will give 7 happy faces. That is a huge return for a small investment.

Pericles is also a good leader for Rapid Expansion. A SE absorbs higher maintenance more easily than a Cottage Economy (CE). Creative gives a hidden production boost, by allowing for cities to increase their borders quickly without any buildings or specialists. Creative allows for early cities to be placed ideally, rather than often having to settle next to a resource to get access more quickly. If a new city has a food resource in its second ring, it can be improved after only 5 turns at normal speed. Most cities will be better quicker because of this.

I mentioned that the SE economy absorbs higher maintenance more easily than the CE. Here is why (math alert, I'll put it in spoiler tags in case you don't care):

xanadux said:

Cheap universities can also be quite powerful. Universities mean more scientists can be run even when not in caste system, and cheap universities make Oxford that much easier to get.

Click to expand...

universities do not let you run any more specialists. you need observatories for an extra scientist, otherwise it's caste system all the way, baby.

I actually find universities to be one of the most annoying buildings because they give you a negligible culture bonus so late in the game and you are required the build them to get the important Oxford University, and yet you can't build them until you first build a library. good thing they are cheaper with Pericles at least!

xanadux said:

(in the spoilered part)

The difference here is that in the CE probably 2/3 of the commerce is coming from the capital, because of all the cottages and Bureaucracy. In the SE, the commerce is more spread out. the capital still generates more, but it may be more on the order of 40%.

Click to expand...

I thought most SE players tend to heavily cottage the capital for the 50% bonus from bureaucracy? In my understanding a typical CE setup has about half the cities focusing on commerce, while a run-of-the-mill SE builds cottages (plus market, grocer, bank) only in the capital?

LlamaCat said:

universities do not let you run any more specialists. you need observatories for an extra scientist, otherwise it's caste system all the way, baby.

I actually find universities to be one of the most annoying buildings because they give you a negligible culture bonus so late in the game and you are required the build them to get the important Oxford University, and yet you can't build them until you first build a library. good thing they are cheaper with Pericles at least!

Click to expand...

Don't know why I wrote that, brain must have shut off for a minute. Original post edited.

ho_chi_minh said:

I thought most SE players tend to heavily cottage the capital for the 50% bonus from bureaucracy? In my understanding a typical CE setup has about half the cities focusing on commerce, while a run-of-the-mill SE builds cottages (plus market, grocer, bank) only in the capital?

Click to expand...

In the case where you use a heavily cottaged capital with the science multipying buildings there (academy, oxford), I would still call this a CE, or a HE, because most of the science will still be coming from cottages.

If your capital is more as you described, with gold multipliers (running low science slider), then even if it has a lot of cottages, the economy acts more like a SE as I described. Even though most of the commerce is coming from the capital, without academy and oxford, the capital is much like any other city as far as converting commerce to gold or beakers.

My favorite way to use Bureaucracy with a SE is primarily for the production bonus.

did you decide which patch (if any) to play with?

The game will be played using the BTS 3.13 patch which can be found in the download section of the Firaxis website.

I will also be using Bhruic's patch which can be found here:



The file you need to replace to use Bhruic's patch can be found in the Assets folder inside the BTS folder of CivIV.

I've only played half a game with this patch, so we'll see how it goes, but the basics of the game are the same. Just as the major aspects of a good economy, and overall game didn't change fundamentally from Vanilla to Warlords to BTS, neither do they change with the patch.

Bhruic's patch is also being used because I have read that it fixes the new bugs the 3.13 patch caused.

I have started the game, but haven't played past the first turn.

Settings are BTS 3.13 with Bhruic's patch. Standard size, Prince Level, Continents, Normal speed, default settings otherwise.

We are playing Pericles of Greece. Starting techs are fishing and hunting. Traits are Cre/Phi. UB is the Odeon, which replaces the colosseum and gives an extra happy face and +3 culture. The UU, the phalanx, is an axeman that gets 100% vs. chariots.

The start:



I have to go right now, but comments on the start to come.

A great early game capital. Too many plains to be really strong in the mid game.
At size 8, the capital can work an irrigated flood plain, the cows, wheat, 3 mined grass hills, and 2 mined plains hills for 20 production. Civil Service will make that 30. With a farmed grassland and the other 3 food tiles, I can run 5 specialists at size 9. Plenty of forest to chop, which is good for the pyramids.

A capital with enough food and hills to have high production is a good capital, especially for a SE. The capital will probably be able to single handedly manage military production, allowing other cities to run the economy with specialists.

Since the capital will probably be busy with production, I think an early game priority is to make sure to do a lot of scouting. I want to find the site for my super science city. At prince level, the value of lightbulbing is far diminished than at higher levels, especially with the slower tech pace at BTS. This is because much of the value of using a Great Person to get a tech comes from trading it to the AI. This helps a great deal to catch up with the AI at higher levels, and I would say only starts to gain on settling a great person at emperor level, and becomes far more powerful above emperor. More on this later.

Since I plan on settling the majority of my great people (which will be primarily great scientists), and they will be settled all in the same place to take advantage of Oxford, I want to decide on the Oxford city very early in the game. This city would ideally have a very large food surplus, plus at least a little production for building Oxford. Thanks to our Phi/Cre traits, building libraries and universities won't be bad, even with fairly low production.

So scouting is a priority, much more so than the last game. In the Mansa game, I tried to scout more, but had 2 warriors killed by wild animals. I had enough information for my early game plans, so delayed further scouting. In this game, at a minimum, scouting must be a priority until a proper Oxford site is found.

Early teching: With all the hills covered by forests, BW is a pretty high priority. With 2 good tiles to irrigate, the wheat and the flood plain, agriculture is a high priority. I would really like to go worker first while researching agriculture. Whenever you have a tile that will produce 5 or 6 food improved, getting that tile improved is a very high priority.

But after irrigating the wheat and the flood plain, the worker will not be able to further improve the capital until AH for the cows, or BW to clear some forest. I did a little math, and it appears to me that the very turn the worker finished irrigating the flood plain, the borders will pop, and the worker can mine the gold while he waits for BW to finish. Since the worker will always have something to do, and has such an important tile (the wheat) to improve, I think worker first is the best choice.

So my plan as of right now is to buld a worker and research agriculture then mining then BW. After the worker, a scout or warrior while the city grows to at least size 2, maybe size 3.

I have a plan in mind for additional teching, and for getting the Pyramids, but I want to allow some time for anyone who wants to take a shot at formulating a plan.

My early game goals (and if you want to offer different goals, feel free):

Develop the capital: growth and worker improvements.
Scout the surrounding area.
Get a second city built.
Build the Pyramids.

So give me a plan to match my goals (or your goals).

so that's definitely a flood plains in your BFC, huh? it kind of looks like desert by a river in that screenshot.

the gold is not in your capital's BFC, so how important will it be to you to get that tile working within a second or third city nearby? personally if I played this start I would be focusing on working that gold tile somehow because I find it really boosts research.

pyramids is important and since you are not industrious and so far there is no stone, that capital looks like a good place to knock it out. I would chop out 2 settlers and stop after 3 cities are founded then start on pyramids and build it ASAP with more chopping if necessary.

agriculture -> mining -> BW -> animal husbandry -> the wheel/masonry? not sure which I would get next at this point, depending on needing the gold's happiness

I've played up to the point of researching BW. I am not going to post it until playing a bit more most likely, especially since I need to work this afternoon.
It turns out there were pigs also just outside the FC of the capital, and moving one tile NE would have had the pigs, wheat, and gold. But I don't mind missing the gold. Gold almost doubles your early research rate early, and is a huge advantage to have in the capital's FC. Since this is a tutorial like game, I am glad not to have it because I don't really want an abnormally good start. The capital site as it is is pretty strong, but not unusually so, and it is suited to a SE.

Working the gold would be nice, but there happens to be a good size desert E of the capital. I haven't yet completely scouted the area around the gold, so we will see if a city is appropriate there.

So far, nothing extraordinary has happened. I have researched Agr/Min/BW, and the first worker finished farms on the wheat and Flood plain the same turn as BW. 3 huts have popped for gold, one for experience, and the one near the capital, the second border pop got me sailing. Sailing is a useful tech, but will not be of huge advantage early on.

The diplomatic front should be much more interesting this game. Already Asoka, Stalin, and Bismarck have been met.

I have found a source of marble, but as yet, no stone.

Yes, that's a flood plain. For some reason, when I got BTS, flood plains now look just like desert river tiles. Maybe it is a graphic option the game turned off. My computer is suboptimal for the game, and with vanilla, I had to remove the movie files because they would crash the game. BTS runs much better on my computer, and I can watch the movies now. I particularly like the Great Wall movie.

that's actually really good luck to get sailing from a hut - the perfect cheap early tech to get that way because you don't have to backtrack to get it later and it might not be worth trading something better for it and archery, for example.

I agree with your assessment of the capital. Although in general I think gold, gems and silver are perfect resources for the SE because they are like a fully developed cottage, but with a production bonus, to go along with your specialists who do most of the research. I personally don't like playing CE games; I think the SE is more interesting and for some reason I find it easier to manage too, I guess because you mostly need to just worry about getting lots of food and hammers in your cities, and not worry about working cottages to grow, which also slows down city growth in general.

Looks like a good game... all three of those leaders are competitors for wonders, but two of them are great trading partners too.

spiritual/philosophical is the ideal SE trait combo. You want to be able to rapidly switch from research mode (representation/caste system/pacifism) to production mode (slavery). Creative is decent with the half price libraries but you'll be whipping libraries anyways so I don't think it's that much of an improvement (I think you need 2 pop instead of 3).

Most SE players also cottage the capital. The extra bonus from the bureaucracy bonus is just too big to ignore. Also, half of the legal civics don't impact the SE since free speech and vassalage just won't be used. Nationhood and bureaucracy are just that much better.

And be prepared to MM your cities You need to make sure the silly governor doesn't start hiring spies (which seems to be the favorite specialist for the governor now). Corruption of your GP pool = bad.

Also, I would skip the pyramids. You can run an SE without early representation and I think it'll be more instructive to show that the SE doesn't stand and fall by the pyramids alone (although they are awesome if you get them). Besides, that's what your phalanx is for.

I have finished Round 1. I played up to completing the first settler. I'm pretty excited about this game. I can tell already it is going to play out completely different from the Mansa game.

I went by my previously posted plan of worker first, and teching Agriculture then Mining and Bronze Working.

Turn 5 The scout gets 46 gold from a hut. Has found marble and a crab/sheep site.

Turn 8 Agriculture finished, start on Mining.

Turn 9 Meet Stalin. His capital is 13 tiles almost due East of Athens.

Turn 12 Hinduism founded in a distant land. My scout continues east and pops a hut for more gold and finds coast.

Turn 14 Buddhism founded in a distant land.

Turn 15 Mining complete, start on BW. Worker complete, moves to irrigate the wheat. Start on Scout.

Turn 17 My scout is attacked by a panther across a river. The scout wins with no damage.

Turn 20 The wheat is improved, and the worker moves to irrigate the flood plain.

Turn 21 My scout, on a forest square, is attacked by wolves and panthers on the same turn. The scout survives, damaged only 30%. I give him the combat 1 promotion. I am hoping he survives 2 more battles and can become my first medic unit.

Turn 22 My scout healed one turn, then moved onto an adjacent hut. They get experience. I will take the medic promotion and head back to the capital. A medic scout is too valuable to die exploring. Also, with 8 exp now from the hut, a later Great General will not only give me a medic 3 scout, but also open up West Point.

Turn 24 Scout attacked by a panther again. Damaged by 30%.

Turn 25 Borders pop in Athens, popping the hut for Sailing. A warrior from Asoka shows up. The new scout is built and will head SE, hoping to catch any huts the Indian warrior may have missed. Athens grows to size 3, and
begins work on a second worker.

Turn 26 German scout meets our Dr. Scout. We meet Bismarck. So it appears that India is S, Russia E, and Germany likely SE:




Turn 27 BW finished, start on AH. 2 sources of copper visible ... NW of Stalin's capital, and far SE, where my scout met Bismarck. Dr. Scout beats Germany to another hut for more gold.

Turn 28 Worker finishes irrigating flood plain, and move SW onto forest hill for chop and mine. Dr. Scout is attacked by lions and survives.

Turn 30 Judaism founded in a distant land. Scout 2 attacked by panthers twice, and survives. Bears move near by. I take the woodsman promotion as there are many jungle in the south.

Turn 31 Asoka adopts organized religion, so he founded Judaism.

Turn 32 Second worker done. First worker finished chop, and starts on mine. Second worker moves SW to chop plains hill. Start on warrior (done in 1 turn from chop). I could build a settler quickly, but am not yet sure where to settle, and it will need escort anyway.

Turn 33 Warrior done, start on another warrior. The warrior will head east to uncover the small unkown area SE of the gold. Dr. Scout is safely back from his journeys, and will follow the warrior and find a safe hill close to my culture to fogbust. I switch from the unimproved cow tile to a forest plain tile. The city will grow in 2 turns which is why I am not starting the settler yet. With this switch it will still grow in 2 turns, but the warrior will be nearly complete in case I need him later.

Turn 35 AH complete, and I start on Writing. The second warrior also heads out to the SE towards the copper. Horses appear just outside FC (in cultural borders to the N), and also near the gold to the East.

Turn 36 With the horses available, I switch to the Wheel. I would much rather be building chariots than warriors. The third warrior completes, and I start on a settler. Athens is now size 4. Worker 1 has completed his mine and moves to pasture the horses. Worker 2 completes his chop and starts on a mine. The warrior stays put to garrison Athens.

Turn 37 My warrior heading East is hurt by lions. He stops to heal, and the nearby second warrior unit changes paths to head where the first was going. The settler will be finished soon, and I want to pick the right spot.

Turn 39 The area to the East is scouted, and the settler will be done in 5 turns. This is a good time to pause and assess the situation. It is time to start considering city placement and a more long term tech path.

The known continent:

The north:



And the south:




I like the SE copper site better than the one by Stalin. It would be nice to know a little more about the land nearby. But the tile I put a sign on, or 1E are options. The sites are equivalent early game food-wise, and roughly equivalent late game. The one on the west side of the river gives far superior early game production though.

So far, known techs are:

Fishing
Hunting
Agriculture
Mining
Bronze Working
Animal Husbandry
And Sailing from the hut.
And The Wheel is 4 turns off.

I would move the SE copper city one E. You get banana+copper in the BFC.
Edit: Nevermind, I see that it does include the resources. It might be too far for it to be founded early enough for an axe rush; the maintence will be death. Also, the copper city will not be productive for a while and it will take a long time to get the copper to the capital, delaying axes.

I EAT CRAYONS said:

I would move the SE copper city one E. You get banana+copper in the BFC.

Click to expand...

Actually the Banana, Copper, and Ivory are all in the FC of the location I marked. Along with 2 grassland hills to the west and the plains hill. Maybe I should make a picture with gridlines on?

The saves:

Starting save:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/114233/AutoSave_Initial_BC-4000.CivBeyondSwordSave

End of Round 1 save:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/114233/CivIV_102_Pericles_BC-2440.CivBeyondSwordSave

A screenshot of the capital:



And a shot of the southern half of the continent with tile grid on:

Interestingly enough, none of the 3 AI I have met have met each other. This suggests a rather large continent.

Although coppertown would be a good city, I am wondering if there is time to delay it to city 3. I can build another settler pretty quickly. The reason I am thinking of delaying is to get a quick commerce boost by settling a city to work the gold tile. This city could work pigs, horses, gold, and the oasis, for good commerce, and decent food. It could work the pigs, horses, and gold plus 2 scientists. Seems like a pretty decent early game city, and it will always pay for itself. The commerce could help a great deal with the copper city being so far away it will drain the economy. Thoughts?

So far the resource department is looking well above average. I can potentially control:

Food/Health resources;
Wheat, Rice, Cows, Clams, Sheep, Pigs and Bananas for +9 health with a granary.

Happy resources:
Wine, Gold, Furs, Incense, Spices, Sugar, Ivory ... +7 happy with no buildings.
And silver is a possiblility up near the furs.

Strategic resources:
Plenty of horses, and relatively easy to reach copper (SE copper connected to capital by river)

Rapid Expansion to claim resources seems to be in order.

Those of you who followed my CivIV 101 game may notice some significant differences in this game, early though it is.

In the Mansa game, I delayed extensive scouting, delayed military, delayed expansion. This was all because production was poor and all revolved around developing the cottage capital.

In this game, I am talking about aggressive scouting, building chariots (I have already built a scout and 3 warriors), expanding quickly.

The capital is going to play a completely different role in this game. It is going to be an early game production powerhouse, building settlers, military, workers, and even wonders. Since I think I convincingly showed last game that world wonders aren't necessary (I didn't build one until the kremlin at the second last turn), I feel no need to restrain myself this game. If a wonder makes sense, I will build it, especially the cornerstone of a good low-mid difficulty level SE, the Pyramids.

I think I should mention that last game, I didn't really avoid the wonders ... there really never was a good reason to build one. The hammers always had a better use. This game will have at least 2 early game production cities, plus the resource of marble. At least a few wonders will be in order.

Something for you all to think about ... where should the super science city be? The capital is actually an option ... the rare early game science/production city. But is there a better choice? Personally, I haven't decided yet.