The Stable

ShunNakamura

ShunNakamura

Warlord
Joined
Jul 21, 2005
Messages
246

Currently Horseback Riding isn't all that great of the tech. The two components of this is that for quite a while HBR does not unlock anything needed. Both Horse riding units and stables aren't really needed[though Elephants are nice should you have ivory]. I don't really think Horse Archers need a boost[6 strength, good retreat rate, etc, is fine for me]. Instead I decided to look at the stable.

The stable currently gives 2 xp to mounted units and costs 60 hammers to build[the barracks meanwhile costs 50 hammers and gives 3 xp]. This is both boring and not ultra useful since horse troops have a limited use. Looking at the stable I think it could use a slight buff.

When I look at the stable I don't think of it as one building necessarily[same as with forges/etc] rather I think of it as a sector of the city that revolves around stables and what stables need. After all, one stable couldn't easily provide training for the large number of horses needed for an entire 'unit' of horsemen[I believe, if my memory of history is correct, that the Byzantines used 100-200 cataphracts per cataphract 'unit']. The other way of thinking of it, in my opinion, is that it is a stable system entirely dedicated for military purposes and breeding.

If we view it as a stable system dedicated purely to military endeavor you would expect the xp bonus to be pretty solid[such as the Ger... its hammers per xp is 15, the barracks is 16]. That and you would expect that it would make producing a large horse military easier. I think adding more xp to the stable isn't really needed[the Ger would need rebalanced then and the xp amount might just get ridiculous]. Thus, I would feel that adding a production bonus to mounted units would be the 'better' option. Not sure what would be balanced.

However, as I stated above I view it as a sector dedicated to the stable industry. This would have economic benefits and not just military. After all horses were important for land trade routes, as well as many other things[messages were sent faster if you had a dedicated stable system etc]. This I think opens up the better path. Stables could do all sorts of things if you look at them at just being a centralized system of stables in each city. This could have an effect on land trade routes, the ease of transporting needed resources from the country side to the city, the amount of work done on improvements due to better/more beasts of burden being available, etc. Personally I think boosting domestic land trade[or perhaps even all land trade] by some amount would be the most interesting in this block. Don't really know if that is feasible xml wise though.

The reason being such a boost likely would not be overpowered[since those type of trade routes aren't generally all that profitable anyways]; but would give some incentive to build them more. In addition it would have some synergy with Mercantilism perhaps giving that civic[which I feel is a bit weak] a bit more life.


Of course that little bit of thanking on my part could be a bit wasted since the stable may be perfectly balanced for those with a stronger grasp on the game.

 
Personally I think horse units are extremely underrated. With a stable and a barracks, you can pump out 50% retreat chance horse archers. However, I certainly think that with a slight hammer increase, that domestic land route increase would be pretty damn nice.

For consistency's sake, the arrival of more modern means of transportation would need a similar building (Railroad station, with a similar bonus?)
 

I wouldn't be against a hammer increase if it got some sort of bonus. After all stables aren't cheap to build or maintain. They need more land and, I would think, more people than a regular barracks would for training the same number of troops. So a larger cost wouldn't be unwarranted.

I usually am also one of those that would defend horse units. After all I usually go for chariots before axes and them for barb defense. I also am a fan of the Horse based UU's for the most part. The issue for me isn't the units themselves... but rather that HBR is expensive and doesn't provide much bang for the buck until later eras[despite its position on the tech tree]. Therefor I was just trying to think of a way that it would be more attractive to go down that route. One way would be to make it lead to other techs that are valuable, etc. The other ways would be to reduce its cost or to make it more attractive by making the units/buildings it unlocks more tempting. Horse Archers are fine for me[though I would prefer them classed as archers and not mounted since horse archers would never charge a line of spears/halbs thus negating their bonus... in addition Elephants wouldn't easily keep up so the units currently with a mounted boost wouldn't lose any deserved bonus vs them], so that leaves the stable.


Actually is it possible to have some sort of tech absolute just one part of the bonuses a building gives? Such as having the Railroad technology or something somewhat later cancel the land route boost but not the xp bonus? This would allow a railroad station to be put in[though railroad alone didn't obsolete horses, it would be a reasonable place to create a replacement building for landroute bonus]. Of course if the boost wasn't too powerful the stable could just keep it since stables still are good for commerce[namely racing stables or other such deals]. Actually why do stables even obsolete in the game? We still have them after all.
 
Stable should provide perhaps 1 or 2 extra commerce, since horses were effectively the economic equivalents of todays motorised transport
 
peter450 said:
Stable should provide perhaps 1 or 2 extra commerce, since horses were effectively the economic equivalents of todays motorised transport
Click to expand...

Of course, depending on the era, only wealthy people could own a horse. In ancient Rome, only the highest class of citizen owned horses, the Equitas. So I don't think there should be any additional commerce. I think we're also supposed to assume that the stable you build is for military horses also, not Farmer Bob's horse. Additionally, I think Horse Archers are a great unit for a few reasons. Firstly, They're one of the best units to respond to incoming invaders. They'll take out axemen, swordsmen and archers early. Of course you should have a few axemen yourself, just to take their spears. Secondly, they pillage better than anyone. Horse Archers are my favorite early unit to go destroying improvements with. The only problem, is that when your enemy knows you are building too many of them, they'll spam spearmen it seems, so then they're totally useless. When it comes to knights and Cavalry, if you have either before your enemy, you'll probably be able to steam roll them. On that note, if I'm not playing as Mongolia, I generally wait till a bit later to go after that tech. Chariots are good enough early game.
 
Horses ? hmm...

Lets say it together .... Immortals! :D

Ridiculously cheap and effective . Doesn't even require HBR .
 
With the Mongols, the Ger (Stable) feels much more competitive. The 4 XP per mounted unit is a great boon, especially when you have Keshiks...the UU and UB combine together nicely.
 
If I have no horses I ignore this tech(Also I Ignore Divine Right, Military Science). Perhaps these are meant to be ignored?

Stables should make extra commerce, perhaps with currency. And later there should be a tech what gives +1 food per stable(Obsoleted by supermarket tech).
 
Desert-Fox said:
If I have no horses I ignore this tech(Also I Ignore Divine Right, Military Science). Perhaps these are meant to be ignored?

Stables should make extra commerce, perhaps with currency. And later there should be a tech what gives +1 food per stable(Obsoleted by supermarket tech).
Click to expand...

Again, it makes little sense to me, to give a military stable a monetary enhancement. Also, +1 food per stable... I know some cultures eat horses... but yuck.
 
I think you might have a point, especially about the pure XP bonus would be ridiculous, especially because barracks+stable = 5 xp (2 levels). On or two more wouldn't matter unless counting civics and/or Charismatic.

ShunNakamura said:
such as the Ger... its hammers per xp is 15, the barracks is 16
Click to expand...

I get barracks to 16,7 rounded to 17?
Sorry for the nitpickin...

ShunNakamura said:
However, as I stated above I view it as a sector dedicated to the stable industry. This would have economic benefits and not just military. After all horses were important for land trade routes, as well as many other things[messages were sent faster if you had a dedicated stable system etc]. This I think opens up the better path. Stables could do all sorts of things if you look at them at just being a centralized system of stables in each city. This could have an effect on land trade routes.
Click to expand...

...Try completing the Horse Whispering Quest... Did it in my current game as mongols... It goes something like this:
Build X stables (X depends on mapsize, in my game it's 5)

Complete! Options:

Use this new advantage to strengthen military - recieve X horsearchers

Use this new advantage economically (Some trade route or :gold: for stables)

Use this new advantage to strengthen horse breeding (Stable +1 :food:)

I had to beat Saladin, so I took the upper, but the last would be nice aswell, and it's kinda the same as what you're asking to improve about the stables.
 

Diamond Eye, I truncated the result.

As for the quest the issue with that is despite the 30'ish games of civ4 I have played I have only gotten 2 quests. Quests are a really bad thing to rely on improving a building.

Desert-Fox, it does make sense ignoring it if you don't have horses... however, if you have horses horseback riding should be a useful tech. Perhaps make it so that the extra bonus for the stable is dependent on having access to horses?


L5zXX0r- If you assume it was purely military yes you would be correct. However, I believe it makes more sense to look at stables as not purely military oriented. The Byzantines for example got many of their military horses from non-military stables[sometimes purchasing from barbarians; other times from stables in their own country]. Speaking in historical sense. A 'military stable' dedicated to purely troop training is actually called a barracks not a 'military stable'. A barracks would have a stable in it if it intended to train horse troops, however, the stable would not be a separate 'entitiy'. It is just a part of the barracks[this by the way is way horses benefit from the barracks]. The reason the stable bonus gives xp isn't so much because the stable is military but because the stable gives basic training to the horse[so that it can be ridden etc], thus saving the military from having to do that so that the military can focus purely on the combat training[rather than basic training]. Of course the basic training is no where near as important as the military training[the stables wouldn't train the horse to charge a bunch of yelling men with sharp pointing objects after all].
 
ShunNakamura said:



L5zXX0r- If you assume it was purely military yes you would be correct. However, I believe it makes more sense to look at stables as not purely military oriented. The Byzantines for example got many of their military horses from non-military stables[sometimes purchasing from barbarians; other times from stables in their own country]. Speaking in historical sense. A 'military stable' dedicated to purely troop training is actually called a barracks not a 'military stable'. A barracks would have a stable in it if it intended to train horse troops, however, the stable would not be a separate 'entitiy'. It is just a part of the barracks[this by the way is way horses benefit from the barracks]. The reason the stable bonus gives xp isn't so much because the stable is military but because the stable gives basic training to the horse[so that it can be ridden etc], thus saving the military from having to do that so that the military can focus purely on the combat training[rather than basic training]. Of course the basic training is no where near as important as the military training[the stables wouldn't train the horse to charge a bunch of yelling men with sharp pointing objects after all].
Click to expand...

Well, good points. Honestly, it would really depend on game balance to see if that would be overpowered. I'm always weary of small changes, since I don't like things to be too overpowered. Maybe if it had an economic bonus it would be dependent on how many horses you have being worked or something. I'd hate for someone to build it just for a flat bonus just for having it built.
 

Good point on how even apparently small changes can end up unbalancing something.

I guess you could have the stables gain an advantage depending on what stable animals you are using it for[in other words you have the resource for]. So horses could give +1 commerce, ivory +1 hammer, and cows +1 food. If you increase the cost by 20 to 80 that should counter balance the bonuses[particularly since one is rare[ivory], one is only moderately common[horses], and one common[I always have bunches of those stupid cows]].

I should really attempt to mod something in like that to see how it would work out.
 
... What I am trying to say is that if you "balance" the stable so that it somehow produces +1:food:, maybe like you say above, and the random event occurs aand you pick food, the stable will suddenly feed a whole poppoint. That's double the effect of the supermarket, available from classical age and cheaper in hammers...
 
L4zXX0r said:
Again, it makes little sense to me, to give a military stable a monetary enhancement. Also, +1 food per stable... I know some cultures eat horses... but yuck.
Click to expand...

The +1:food: is due to plowhorses increasing crops. ;)
 
Diamondeye said:
... What I am trying to say is that if you "balance" the stable so that it somehow produces +1:food:, maybe like you say above, and the random event occurs aand you pick food, the stable will suddenly feed a whole poppoint. That's double the effect of the supermarket, available from classical age and cheaper in hammers...
Click to expand...

Ok... Now I see. Though personally due to the rarity of quests I really wouldn't care about it all that much. However, I'll acknowledge that just cause I don't ever get them; that alone doesn't mean it is rare enough to have a bonus stack like that.

I mostly tacked the food bonus on there just so that 'ever' stable animal had some bonus. That wasn't something I was really attracted to. But I figured if you were going to give bonuses to one stable animal you may as well come up with ideas for all the stable animals.
 
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