Tsar of Kievan Rus

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Tsar of Kievan Rus

Demo game: BTS 3.13 with Bhuric 1.09, Earth 1000 AD, Russia, Emperor

Mutax2003 requested a 1000 AD demo game with a challenging civ on a higher than default handicap level. Mali/Aztec/Inca/Khmer are somewhat similar: isolated with a large, lush backyard. I'm not sure if Russia is a challenging civ or not, but it was on Mutax's list. Russia is somewhat isolated with a large but not so lush backyard. Korea would be cool, but I chose Russia for the western medieval flavor. I'd like Domination/Diplomatic but will take Space. On Normal (the only option without editing the Worldbuilder file) there are 340 turns left, not too many for Domination on a Huge map. The default for Russia is Chieftain. I'm usually OK on Emperor, so let's try that.

I don't know what difficulty to expect and am not at all an expert on the scenario. Before starting let's look at a test game in cheat mode. The dotmapping is obviously sadistic. Kiev makes me want to Worldbuilder in a nuclear power plant that melts down and destroys the city in the first 10 turns. There's not much I can do with Kiev or Kherson. Kiev does however start with an AP Monastery + Cathedral for 4 hammers. Novgorod is hideously one tile off the coast, but still a good GP farm.

Saladin is obviously an enemy. Everyone but me is also at war with Ragnar, who has no metal, no Settlers and 90 turns until his culture gets his Iron tile. I do have a Settler and will send it straight to Deer/Iron. I'll displease Ragnar if I have to. I will go for OB, and if he asks me to declare on England or someone, that's probably OK, but I don't plan on trading with him.

Ragnar also has Silver, which complements my only two happies, Gems and Furs. I'm tentatively planning on a building-heavy approach to happy, with Forges, Markets, AP Temples, and maybe the Culture stuff. With Slavery and high-production land I think I can get there, although I don't quite know what I'll do for research. Settle and work my abundant river tiles, for one thing.

I want to abuse the AP, so Meditation first. 5 turns. Why are the other leaders researching it in 1 and 2 turns?
Well, with France, it's commerce tiles and trade routes. I have crappy trade routes. Opening borders with Justinian, Charlemange, and Ragnar cuts it to 4 turns. That's a start. I also need to meet the other Euro civs for the research bonuses on known techs.

An obvious asset is my backyard full of tiles, rivers and forest. Siberia is lush and eventually I can get the Gold. The forests, I'm not sure how to use. Chop buildings? I love my Lumbermills, but with the BTS Environmentalism changes they're just not the same. Forest Preserves, even shared ones, are just-OK even with Environmentalism, and I'd prefer to run State Property for flavor.

Other assets are Philosophical and the grabbable world wonders. At the moment, no AI is working on any wonders. Novgorod can pop an Engineer in 17 turns and I'll burn him on the Great Library if I can. Kiev can build the Great Wall in 13 turns. Unfortunately if I get the GL it would be too hard IMO to get Kiev to catch up in GPPs to Novgorod and pop a Spy any time soon, but the Wall would be convenient for me in the short term and when expanding east. Maybe also for Generals. Luckily Novgorod already has a Courthouse, so it can have a pure Scientist/Spy pool. Spies I also like for Russky flavor. If I get any I'll spy bomb a tech leader and steal stuff.

I'm planning to put Oxford in Novgorod along with National Epic or more likely National Park. With Philosophical and Stone I should be able to get Oxford there pretty soon. The first scientists I'll settle unless there's an opportune lightbulb. If I was expert in the scenario I'd know when to expect Liberalism, but all I know now is that Wang has all the prerequisites already. So I'm going to assume I can't bulb my way to Liberalism.

Regarding civics and city development, I'm undecided about whether to do a full-on farm economy. I don't have a ton of food resources. On the other hand I don't have a ton of happy, and so the culture slider is tempting anyway. With high production I might be able to fight my way to Saladin's happy resources after dealing with Ragnar (for Silver) and Genghis (for Gold), but I'll have to see what happens to Saladin. Europe I don't want to mess with, and idea of saving Europe for late is, again, appealing for flavor.

I'll probably play this pretty fast (indeed I may have to restart if necessary ), but will play in rounds, so feel free to comment / harp / ridicule in between if you like.

Jet said:

Kiev makes me want to Worldbuilder in a nuclear power plant that melts down and destroys the city in the first 10 turns.

Click to expand...

It does not even have fresh water, which it obviously should have, if one looks at a worldmap. Who made this map ?

I have played all the 1000 AD civs in the vanilla and things I have found (other than that the map was desgned for historical balance rather than realism)

The general challenge is the Europeans.. they are on a low difficulty level and will be a real danger of Space Racing

The civs can be divided into a few categories

West Europeans:
Advantage=Difficulty level
Disadvantage=size
Strategy.. expand either in Europe/Arabia against hard targets or to America/Africa against Soft targets

Arabs:
Advantage=Tech Level, Shrines, Size
Disadvantage=Difficulty level
Strategy.. you need to take care of Europe and Russia is the soft underbelly, get peace with the Rest of Europe ASAP (transitioning to Christianity can help) before taking them out one at a time

Russians
Advantage=Difficulty level, potential size
Disadvantage=size, techs
Strategy.. broker techs, get peace with Arabia, expand, work on a specialist Economy

Chinese/Japanese
Advantage: Tech
Disadvantages: not many (land for Japan) (Mongols for China)
Key strategy.. hold off the mongols/start expanding through India+Arabia Your size can then make up for the Europeans

Indians
Advantage: not much (land is decent)
Disadvantage: tech
Key Strategy: peace with Arabs.. try trading techs with China.. expand into open areas and then attack the Arabs once you hav surpassed them.. overall similar to Russia, they are behind but in a good position to broker

Mongols
Advantage: Army
Disadvantage: Tech+Land
Strategy Hit China Fast and hard and don't give up until they have muskets... then take a break and reload

The West Europeans, Russia, Arabs, Chinese and Japanese all can take part in the Wonder Rush
Oracle, Great Wall, Great Library, Sistine, Temple of Artemis, Great Lighthouse, Statue of Zues, Masoleum, Colossus are all available... the first three are very potentially useful (given the number of barbs on the map)
Oracle can be used by Arabs or Chinese to pop Liberalism, and so get an additional free tech

There is also the great Eurasian Tech trade... European and East Asian civs have different branches of the tree
Arabs, Russians, Mongols, Indians and Chinese are best positioned to exploit this by becoming tech brokers. (given the ability to get early contact



Note: not including BTS civs of Vikings/Byzantines/Koreans/Khmer, since I haven't done them

Next we move on to the Third World, Mali, Aztecs, Incas
I normally play with Permanent Alliances, so in that case, a key strategy is allying with a European for the tech boost (just make sure their capital is well defended.. I did an Aztec BTS 1000AD and the Europeans launched a major nuclear attack on the HRE.. my ally..when I launched our spaceship)

If no Permanent Alliances, then the Internet is a good thing to aim for but that is harder in BTS than in Vanilla due to its new position

In any case, for Third World civs
Advantage: Available Land
Disadvantage: Tech
Mali is less extreme than the Americas

So the strategy is the same, REX and develop your Economy as fast as possible... Mali also has to use Diplomacy to stay peaceful with Both Arabs and Europeans.

1000 - 1525 (55 turns)

Russia starts in HR / Vassalage / Slavery / OR. It's good for building up infrastructure and an army, so I stay there.

As planned, I
* send my starting settler to block Ragnar's metal
* build the Great Wall in Kiev, accelerated by a couple chops from my Worker
* run an Engineer off the Forge in Novgorod, and rush the Great Library with my first GP

I'm aiming for two tiers of techs:

1. Meditation, Drama, Metal Casting -- basic production and happy infrastructure.
This tier (or even my current tech) is sufficient to attack Ragnar: Longbows and Trebs vs Longbows and a few leftover Beserkers. Russia starts with Engineering, but without MC or Machinery. Drama is because I have decided to use the culture slider, although with most cities small, I don't get around to doing so in this round.

2. Paper, Education, Gunpowder -- cheap Universities, Oxford, Musketmen for Arabia.
Instead of Gunpowder I could trade for Machinery, but Gunpowder is after Education and is on the way to Grenadiers and Cannon.

After Meditation in 1040, I choose to research CS for trading. It's off my path, and not very useful since I have many river tiles to work and don't have Machinery, but it's not known and I'm looking for trades.


The other early wonders start to fall.

Barb cities start to fall. Louis, Isabella, and I grab cities in my backyard. Louis's flips and I disband it. Louis gets Danzig. My barb city is poor, but I take it because it's near Stone, and with Paper on my research path and plans to spam AP buildings, I have designs on Sankore. (I believe AP buildings should usually be spammed when they're available.) However, Sankore ends up falling long before I hook the Stone up.

I quickly meet all the Euros, and they readily sign OB and get to Pleased with religion and mutual struggle against Saladin. I decline many requests to declare on Ragnar, since I'm defending my blocking city with one Horse Archer. For some strange reason, the AIs don't appreciate the service I'm doing for them by blocking his metal.

After the wonders I initially build mainly Workers, Granaries, and AP Monasteries and Temples.

In 1130 the Euros are aquiring some techs, but fortunately not CS.


1170 is when I actually get the Engineer and rush the Great Library.

In 1230 my second great person builds an Academy in Novgorod. My purpose is to develop Novgorod as a specialist-based Oxford city.

In 1260 I get CS, and the tech board is eye-opening.

In the last 13 turns:
Louis: 5 techs (Music, Philo, MC, Compass, CS)
Isabella: 5 techs (same as Louis)
Liz: 2 techs (CS, Music)
Charlemange: 4 techs (Philo, MC, Drama, CS)
Justinian: 1 tech (I think just CS)

Louis and Isabella, for example, must have researched 1-2 techs and traded Divine Right for another 2-4. Of course, they all share Christianity and wars. But I think the computer must have run an optimization algorithm to figure out the set of trades that maximizes their total advancement. On the other hand with Liz somewhat behind, you can see that it's not as though it's completely "cheating" with the AI trading. Furthermore all 5 of them are on Chieftain (except Justinian, on Monarch), and I think they're also getting bonuses from me being on Emperor. So it's something like me being on Deity.

I realize that the Euros hate Saladin worse than Ragnar and decide that Ragnar will have Longbows by the time I attack him anyway, so I start trading techs with him.

After CS I research Paper and bulb Philo and half of Education, hoping to leap ahead to Education and trade it for Guilds and Printing Press.

Euros -- Isabella, Liz, and me -- gradually start to get AP-voted out of the crusades.

In 1410 I meet Wang and trade Engineering for Machinery. By now I've added a few cities. I have
* the metal-blocking production city
* the barb stone city
* 2 more production cities
I'm sending them Christian missionaries so that I don't have to wait for the OR bonus and AP buildings.


In 1525 I finish Education, but I'm too late to trade with the Euros. An event gave me spy points on Louis, and I can see that he has researched Economics and is on Chemistry. I got a couple trades from Mansa. Liberalism is still up, although it would take me 25 turns to research it and I don't expect to get it. The board:


I've built only a couple units. So far I seem safe from the Euros, but it's hard to tell. I still have 7 cities, and now 11 Workers. The metal city has Granary / Monastery / Temple / Forge / Barracks and is building units for Ragnar - so far 2 Maces and 1.5 Trebs.

The world in 1525:


I don't think that the plan I talked about to aquire Scandinavia, Mongolia, and Arabia for their resources would get me even to space. It's true that the Euros would have the major disadvantage of lower production which, unlike technology, they could not share or pool. They would have extra production from colonies, however. Overall, I think they'd launch first.

Strategically, I see three ways to keep up:
1. I'm ahead of most of the non-Euros. Some tech trading is available.
2. In theory, espionage. I could try (or could have tried) harder to great spies, and I wonder what I could do with the slider. This might become difficult when the Euros acquire espionage tech naturally, in contrast to what would be my strategy of a strong focus on espionage. But it could be a way to turn the Euro tech advantage on its head.
3. Attack the Euros with inferior units. As Uncle Joe [may have] said, "quantity is a quality all its own." Whether this would be with something like the ~7 cities I have now or a larger number, I don't know. In the short term, well... right now the Euros still have medieval units. Since I have developed my production, if I am very focused I might be able to conquer one of them before he has a lot of Riflemen. I doubt it, though - I don't think my production is up to it, nor do I have Theatres and Colosseums.

I will keep trying, but I'm not sure whether I'll continue this particular game. If I do, I might not report in detail. I'll probably restart on Monarch or Prince. It's interesting now, but I think it would be better if it was easier. On Prince I might sort of be able to compete with the Euros on tech. No matter what, I'd still be in an interesting production race. In this game, technology is advancing much faster than I can expand. (I'm worried about Charlemange getting Mass Media and obsoleting the AP!) Regardless of the exact level, I think the main questions are -
* how much espionage (if any) and how to get it
* whether, when and how to attack Europe

If I restart I don't know what strategy I'll adopt, but here's one possibility:
* Put all Great Person production on Great Spies. At the beginning this could only be the Great Wall plus one spy specialist. Since I'm Philosophical, and the AIs shouldn't have good counterespionage for a while, and spy bombing is so strong, this is an efficient way to use my GPPs.
* REX to 6-10 cities and develop them for production. Since I have good production land, this is an efficient way to use my tiles.
* Include Colosseums and Theaters, and turn the culture slider way up for maximum growth and production. There would have to be enough commerce left over for city/civic/unit maintenance. I'm not imagining any commerce on espionage. Since I have limited happy and commerce, this is an efficient way to use my slider.
* Take out the Euros one by one with whatever units can be built with stolen technology. Don't attack Scandinavia, etc; no time.

I'm jazzed enough about the great spy / hammers / culture idea to try it on Emperor.

1000 - 1500 (50 turns)

Pure builder turns, REXing and building up production cities. A bit of tech stealing, and lots of backtrading with non-Euros.

Again I start by opening all borders with civs. Overall, having their knights romp around my territory is a win for defense against Saladin and barbs. For example, Justinian takes the barb city next to Kherson with a Cataphract, but then loses it to an Archer. I snatch it and raze. I'm also lucky to capture Balanjar, although I'll have to prioritize a CG2 LB to defend it from Saladin. I raze the other barb city ("stone city") with my HAs.

I build the Great Wall in Novgorod with a couple chops, then permanently hire a spy.

1120 Feudalism to Ragnar for MC. I previously gave him Meditation.
France voted out of crusades.

1170 finish Drama and trade it plus Engineering to Ragnar for Civil Service. Put a turn into Philo, hoping for a trade from Genghis. First great spy is Julius Rosenberg.

Sent to Bremen. Charlemange is my first military target, although annoyingly in this game, Louis has captured both Danzig and Visegrad. I think Justinian is better left alone; he's busy with Saladin, and only on Monarch. Better to take out the Chieftains.

1180 Philo from Genghis for CS, Mono, and Drama. The less I have to steal from the Euros, the better. Now I'm almost ready to turn off research, but I want to try to get Machinery from Ragnar for Philo. I'm the meat in a Ragnar and Genghis Khan sandwich (TMI?) I realize I could switch to Pacifism. Very tempting, doubles my research, in a way. However, I guess that my production race is still more important.

1210 I'm voted out of the crusades. This time I guess that the convenience of safety from Saladin is better than the diplo bonus with the Euros, and vote yes.

1260 Justinian voted out of crusades. Trade Philo to Ragnar for Machinery. Ragnar Friendly. Now I turn off research and put espionage on max.

1370 second great spy is Qin Wuyang.

Also sent to Bremen.
Liz peace with Ragnar.

1400 Izzy declares on Ragnar and Genghis declares on Izzy.

1440 first steal: Paper for 421. As far as I can tell, each great spy gives 3000. Next turn trade it to Ragnar for Compass.

1470 Engineering to Genghis for Music.

1490 Wheat for Wine to Charlemange. Good enough for now...

1500 second steal: Guilds for 729.

I'm paying only cursory attention to what techs the Euros have. However well or poorly they're doing, it's not going to affect my strategy.

Here's my full set of cities, all developed for production. I have two more settlers on the move; one will take the other flats/Furs spot west of the Urals, and the other will grab Gems. There are other great spots just across the Urals, but this is all I can afford (if that), since maintenance is up to 70%.



I have 10 workers for 7 cities and am not working too many unimproved tiles. Still need more workers. With production tiles and forests to bootstrap my cities, Slavery is less important now. Soon I think I should switch to Serfdom or Caste System (for workshop hammers).

For the most part the builds in each city are AP Monastery, Granary, AP Temple, units, then Theater and Colosseum as needed. But I haven't needed the culture slider yet, and at the moment, I only have 30% to play with anyway. Forges will come, but they're a bit expensive. I need units. At the moment I have "no" defense, much less an invasion army. Well, I did build one Treb.

I'm regretting Balangar (southeastern Deer/Copper) a bit. With Monastery + Temple it will be OK, but it's under strong competition from Saladin for the resource tiles. Partly, I just wanted to control the chokepoint. It's the whole Russian overexpansion thing.

1500 - 1822 (71 turns)

1505 1 of 2 Horses to Mansa for Ivory + 1
1510 Meet Wang. He won't trade Education or Gunpowder. Gems city is blocked by barbs.
Meet China, who also won't trade techs, but will trade my 1/1 copper for Silk + Clams.
1515 Guilds to Ragnar for Optics + World Map (just some African coast) + 15.
Meet Asoka, who has good resources, but I have nothing to trade. Sign OB.
1525 Meet Survya and trade Cow for Spices.
Third steal: Gunpowder for 825.
1535 Liz is the only of the Euros without Gunpowder and will trade it for Banking + 120. I'm reluctant to give them anything, but I do it.
1540 Holy Mountain quest. I don't think I'll have a problem getting the 22 religions buildings to locate the mountain (and I already have a cathedral); but getting the settler out...
1560 Ragnar - Isabella peace voted.
Fourth steal: Education for 1360. Fails the first time, succeeds the second.
1565 Elizabeth wins Liberalism and takes Nationalism (I think).
1575 Fifth steal: Nationalism for 1575.
1585 Third spy is Giacomo Casanova

I have 1403 EPs left on Charlemagne, so I'm a little unsure whether I should burn Casanova on him, or move on. I just don't want any left over.
I send him to Paris Louis instead. I'll use the 1403 on revolts. Better build some more spies.
Slavery is not doing much for me now, and neither is OR. I revolt to Serfdom and Pacifism.
1590 I'm digging this great spy thing. It's like my own medieval internet... Russian style.

1605 hook up another fur and trade to Asoka for Sugar.
1610 clear out barb city and settle Gems.
1635 down to 0% everything +6, decide I'd better get some infrastructure, and queue up Banks in major cities. It just has to be done.
1640 Sixth steal (now from Louis): Economics for 982. Fails, and the other spies need more time. Humph.
1660 Qin wants to reneg Copper for Silk + Clam. He wants Iron, but will give Silk + Clam + Fish + Rice for that. Well, all right.
I find the holy mountain. It's WAAAAAY the heck in Alaska or some place.
1665 Sixth steal, for real this time: Constitution for 1404. This is fantastic, for the Jails. Now I can have more than one spy city, too.
It's also tradeable:
to Mansa for Chemistry + map. This hides the location of the holy mountain, and I reload. THIS DEMO GAME IS HORRIFICALLY, IRRECOVERABLY TAINTED BY ME RELOADING MY WEED MAP TRADE THAT HIDES THE HOLY MOUNTAIN. The holy mountain is indeed in the most ridiculous possible location.

Constitution can also be traded:
to Justinian for PP
to Charlemagne for 490
1680 Saladin demands a spare wheat, and I comply, not needing the hassle.
1695 Seventh steal: Economics for 1095. Serfdom has outlived its usefulness, and so I do a twofer to Slavery and Free Market. Slavery is an iffy choice, but I am finally going to attack soon, and I need an emergency production tech. Nationhood is very logical, but I don't want to give up Pacificism or the +2 XP.
1705 I finish my first Jail, pimping my "research":

1710 Asoka comes for tech trading and I notice amazing opportunity that I had missed. Nationalism, Gunpowder, and Guilds for Astro, Liberalism, map, plus 280.
This puts me second in score! Size does matter. Also, Copper for Incense + 5.

1715 Fourth Great Spy of Russia is Anthony Babington:

He's sent to Paris. Right now all I can steal there is Divine Right. Modern techs are getting more expensive, I'm afraid. I get another 3000. Apparently it's a flat payoff (well, maybe it varies with world size or speed.) An immediate steal of Replacable Parts for 1263 fails, and that was my only Spy in Paris. Better build more.

1745 (turn 257) I gave myself until turn 260, 100 turns into the game, as a deadline for declaring. If you're wondering why I didn't just rush, my primary reasoning was that I didn't have much food. I wanted to grow and work all my nice production tiles. Now, I did have forests, so _chopping_ an army early with minimal infrastructure (Forges, Barracks) could have been a viable alternative. But the way I did it, this is the earliest I felt I could attack.

Review of armies:
- My stack near Kiev: 6 Muskets, 3 Phants, 12 Maces, 1 XBow, 3 HAs, 3 Pikes, 7 Trebs
- Charlemagne stack near Kiev: 6 Cuirs, 2 Muskets, 3 Phants, 1 Land
- Rome: 2 Cuirs, 2 Muskets, 2 LBs, 2 Lands, 3 Trebs
- Kiev, Rostov, Bremen, Salzberg, Ribe, Syracuse: modest garrisons, 4-6 units each

My stack and Charlie's are both standing on the hill tile outside Kiev.


Since I have the Great Wall, and Charlie has a decent stack and reserves in Rome, and I have a chokepoint on a hill; I decide to hold back at first. Hopefully, he'll suicide some units in my territory at mediocre odds. That will also give me some time to get my spies back into his territory for city revolts.

Part of the reason I expect to pull this off is that the Euros have prioritized Democracy over Rifling. I suspect with warmonger personalities or the Aggressive AI setting this would not have been the case. The downside for me is that they're starting to building Security Bureaus, for example in Salzburg and Rome.

I have 1523 EPs on Charlie and 2 Spies each in Salzburg and Rome. For some reason they don't have an option for sabotage production, but with the full stationary bonus a city revolt is 140. At full espionage I'm producing 103 EPs per turn. I decide to steal Military Tradition for 1512 and put all my EPs on Charlie. By the time my spies get back to his cities, I should have enough EPs for revolts. Then I won't then have a lot of unused EPs left over after Charlie.

The reason I've spread my EPs evenly so far is that I haven't produced many of them from commerce, so I figured it didn't much matter. I'd spend most of them anyway. But I'm still ahead in EPs of everyone in Europe, and the intelligence has been handy.

Eighth steal: Military Tradition for 1512. Or not. Both spies fail, and the extra distance to Rome (I guess) means I can't do it from there. Rome has 4 turns before its Security Bureau completes, so I hope I can get enough EPs to do it in Rome before then. (Both Spies in Rome have full stationary).

By the way, nobody should take this as any kind of expert demonstration of espionage. I'm just explaining what I'm doing.

1750


Couldn't have said it better myself, Sun Tzu. Or maybe I'm just a bad rusher.
My last spy in Rome pulls a Counterespionage.

Finally, on turn 260, it's time to let loose the dogs of whatever. Funny thing is, he's at +21 / -1 and would agree to a Defensive Pact. Justinian and Louis have one of those, which is going to be VERY ANNOYING if I have to deal with it. However they both have enough on their hands right now. Justinian is Friendly and Louis is Pleased, and my power rating is respectable, so I'll assume it's not me. Furthermore, if I can snatch Rome, I should have enough pop and diplo (I hope) to be the pope, and can prevent either of them from being voted out of whatever crusade they're about to start - hence no Defensive Pact, hence I'll have one of them (probably Louis) to myself. Then Isabella, then either Elizabeth or Justinian. I don't have a sense of whether I can pull off Domination or not, but for now I'll just keep plugging.

When I declare, I notice that Mansa is Charlemagne's vassal. Charlie occupies Timbuktu. But all of Charlie's units are in his home territory, and some in Africa; none are in my rear (yet?) Annoyingly however, his stack (which I think was headed for remaining Siberian barb cities; Justinian and Louis also have armies there) gets teleported to Poland rather than to where they'd attack the hill choke. I did save forests near Novgorod for just this purpose, but I'll have to spread out. It will be a little tricky. I spread out a thin defense of Woodsman 2 Pikes and Muskets. There's still a hole where the Cows are, but if he attacks me in Novgorod with 60% defense and CG units, that will be OK.

IBT he tries to punch through a forest just north of the choke, and does admirably (starts with withdrawing Cuirassiers, follows up with Lands) but is too stupid to use all of his units, and doesn't make it through.

1755 I move my spies to Rome, reinforce the Polish forests, and start to tear down Salzburg the old fashioned way.

IBT, Charlemagne punches through the same tile. He's pretty much down to pillagers, though, 7 injured Cuirs and Phants. I should be able to pick them off with Pikes.

Qin decides I'm his worst enemy and cancels our big Iron-for-Pu-Pu-Platter deal.

1760 Asoka offers me Banana for Deer. I double check if Banana for Deer is OK with him, and then he refuses to do Banana for Deer. And this is with the Bhuric patch.

I retake the Polish forest that Charlie took and get a GG.

My second spy city comes online:


Louis and Justinian are upgrading to Rifles and building Security Bureaus; I can't see Charlie's research any more.
Charlie's espionage is 773 (him) to 238 (me). Continue to beat down Salzburg. Need to move fast.

1765 Charlie tries to punch through a forest, but does it in the stupidest possible way and my kill ratio is like 6 to 1. I get a Woodsman III Pike out of the deal. I have a GG waiting. After consulting carl corey's great article Woodsman III & Medics, I decide it will be most efficient to leave the Woodsman III as a secondary healer and use the GG on a Medic III Cuirassier.

Third spy city comes online, the other flats-and-furs city near St Pete.

1770 Emancipation starts to get adopted and I queue some spies. I'm behind in stealing. I need Democracy, Replacable Parts, Rifling, and Steel. I'm OK on EPs, with 3900 on Louis, 3 spy cities, and the next spy due in 5 turns from Novgorod.

Finish beating down Salzburg the slow way, but want to wait a turn for full Treb support.

I notice that Justinian is sending Homer, in the clothes of the 70s Elvis, to Siberia for a hoedown. Beg 200 from him. Check Isabella and see that I am in WFYABTA. Not surprising.

1775 Punching through Charlie's Protective LBs in Salzburg costs me 5 of my 8 Trebs. Nothing I could really do about it. I also lose a copule Maces at pretty good odds. Leave one unit in the city, not enough units to hold it securely this turn. But I need to get it and Rome he votes me out of this war. I can see his research again and luckily, he is researching Corporation rather than Rifling (fool). Reinforce my stack from the reserves that were defending the Polish border.

Turn culture to 10% and queue WW buildings here and there.

1780 One of the units Charlie moved to reinforce Salzburg is a CG3 Drill I Musket. That's fun taking down. But I get another GG and with reinforcements I should hold the city and the stack. Then heal and get to Rome... but I do have the Medic III now.

GG is settled in Stalingrad, the Wheat/Sheep/Iron city in vaguely its historical location. Looking again, I think Moscow has higher production capability. I'll build Heroic Epic / West point in Moscow.

1785 Justinian asks me to cancel on Arabia. My old Wheat tribute, I believe. No problem.

1795 Fifth great spy is Max Gogf, who is so stealthy I can't find him on Google.

Army heads out of Salzburg to Rome.

Louis is thwarting my spies in Paris. I have plenty of EPs on Charlie and switcch all EPs to Louis. I also wonder if I could steal techs from Danzig, which also has a security bureau, but is much closer to me. Embarassing that I didn't think of it.

1802 get the Colosseum quest. Now that's a quest I can fulfill.

1804 revolt Rome and attack. He doesn't have a ton of units, but they're tough ones. But I get some good Maceman rolls. Rome has a Scotland Yard, like Salzburg. It also has 2 settled GGs and 2 settled great prophets, hubba hubba. He won't cap. I'll go after Syracuse next and raze it. I think I can afford a little razing, since he's still Pleased.

1806 Yes I can steal tech from Danzig, and it's quite a bit cheaper. Oh dear. Can't do it yet though.

1808 Salzburg comes out of revolt and immediately goes back into revolt.

1812 Louis completes SOL.

1816 Raze Syracuse. The partisans are 5 Muskets! ***hole won't cap. Next stop Bremen.

Finally have a couple spies stationary in Danzig. I'm pretty sure it will pay off to sabotage his security bureau for 528 first. I then fail to steal Replacable Parts for 1555.

1822 Charlemagne wouldn't cap, but vassalizes to Louis, with his Rifles and Cavalry. That's trouble. I'm four turns from stealing Replacable Parts at max stationary. But what I probably should steal is Democracy, since I have around 4 points of Emancipation weariness. Louis's units are somewhat all over the place. Better take a break and end the round.

War front. Besides the fact that my units are way behind his, Louis has caught me a bit off guard, with some cities on buildings. On the other hand, he doesn't have anything that looks like an attack stack, and it doesn't look like he's building, one either. It looks like he might be going cultural, but right now he's on 80/0/20 (at -11, the *******). Danzig, for example, I'm pretty sure it started rebuilding the Security Bureau I sabotaged, but then queued a missionary in front of it.
(Large)
I definitely got behind in Spy production this round. I spent too much time with EPs on Louis not doing anything because I didn't have enough Spies, instead trying to hurry the buildup on Charlemagne. But I ended up building too many old units.

I also think I could have been more careful with research. Maybe if I had spent more commerce on research rather than nonessential espionage, I could have half-researched more things and gotten trades. I noticed for example that after I stole Military Tradition I might have gotten Replacable for it from Mansa or Ragnar, but in practice couldn't because they were on the way to MT themselves.

I replayed 1816 experimentally. Before capturing Syracuse, Charlie's reason for no cap is Doing Fine. After, whether you keep it or raze it, his reason switches to Afraid of Your Enemies.

He could mean Saladin, the leader in food and power (he and I are tied for hammers). Saladin is Furious, of course. Probably not too much I could have done about that, but you never know. I also might have been able to keep him down a bit.

Qin might be a factor for Charlie, although he's only Annoyed, as I've been completely ignoring diplomacy east of Jerusalem. I might have been able to do something there as well.

But on investigation I think the key factor is Charlie's former vassal Mansa. Mansa and I are only at war because Mansa was Charlie's vassal. It turns out that you can take Syracuse, make peace with Mansa, then cap Charlie.

Hmm. :\

1822 - 1886 (32 turns)

Well... two nights ago I started up the game, pressed Enter, and lost Rome. Decided I was too tired to play and reloaded last night. I had pretty much written off the game, but figured I might as well try something desparate, and in 1822, instead of pressing Enter and losing Rome, successfully blew all 7500 EPs on Louis on non-stationary steals of Replacable and Rifling (10th and 11th steals). Got a little money from begs and sales, upgraded a couple Muskets, and revolted to Nationalism. Moved attack stack (4 Cuirs, 1 Musket, 6 Mace, 2 HAs, 1 XBow, 7 Pikes, 2 Trebs) from Salzburg toward Danzig.

Oddly, Louis pulled half the units out of Danzig (5 CG Rifles) and sent them to Visegrad (a Byzantine possession)...

1826 I start drafting. On Huge map, you can draft 5 units per turn, and I have big cities.
Charlie's muskets fail to retake anything.
Louis's CG batallion head into the Ukraine. Could they be headed for my Black Sea city, which is being pummeled by Charlie's Frigates?

1830 Qin cancels the Pu Pu Platter (this one size small, Silk/Fish/Clam) again. I reneg for Incense + Silk for Copper + Horse + Iron.
Revolt Danzig and capture it after suiciding my 2 Trebs and some Cuirs.

1832 Bhuric is not working for me. Maybe I don't have it installed right (in Beyond the Sword/CustomAssetts)? Liz offers Fish for Wheat, then demands something ridiculous when I double check.

Sixth great spy is Ishikawa Goemon


1834 With more cheap begs and fire sales, upgrade a couple more frontline garrison muskets.

1836 STRIKE and set most cities on wealth. Moscow is building West Point and the newly captured cities are building culture buildings.

Stack heads out from Salzberg. Conveniently, I have some Guerilla 2 Rifles and the path to Paris is all hills. Left behind are 4 1XP drafted Rifles, my Woodsman III pike, and another Combat 2 Pike.
Attack stack is: 1 Cossack, 5 Rifles, 3 Cuirs, Musket, 5 Maces, 1 HA (Sentry), 1 XBow, 5 Pikes, 1 Treb
I should make it to Paris a few turns before he gets Assembly Line. Paris is poorly defended by 3 Rifles and a Grenadier. I have about 1000 EPs on him and Ishikawa should ensure that I have enough to revolt Paris.

1842 Last turn I infiltrated Paris and now have 4671 to 839 EPs. My stack is outside Paris. His CG Rifles (a total 8 units in 3 stacks) are marching straight across the Russian heartland, not pillaging, not attacking, apparently headed for somewhere in Siberia.

6 spies are in Paris. The best one has 40% stationary, but I still don't have enough EPs to steal Democracy (Emancipation weariness is up to around -5), so I use him for a revolt for 320, successful. Lose a few units, but between the revolt, a few Trebs, and withdrawals, I take it. Paris has the GL, Colossus, Notre Dame, Taj, and SOL. Louis still refuses to talk.

Eighth Great Spy is John Honeyman. This picture is horrifying, so I will spoiler it.


Louis finds my gems city in Siberia and captues it with quite a few units. Oops. A couple units and I surely could have held it.

1844 stack heads immediately for Marseilles, defended by one Rifle.

1846 stack outside Marseilles. I revolt it for 460 (expensive), will revolt again next turn.

1848 revolt Marseiles for another 460. Defense is 3 rifles. Take it with a few losses.

1850 Charlie won't split from Louis. Louis is 3 turns from Assembly line. Ragnar offers Gems for my Wheat, nice.
Working both sides of the American revolution, the Ninth Great Spy is Daniel Cole.


1856 Louis blows a stack of Trebs etc that came back from Siberia on Stalingrad, but there's a large garrison of draftees.

1856 Louis is 1 turn from Assembly Line and has a strong defense in Bordeaux: 7 Rifles and a Grenadier. I've promoted a couple CR Maces to Rifles and next turn can attack him with about twice that many (inferior) units.
EPs are 7633 to 819.
Spies in Bordeaux:
1 @ 40% - steal Demo for 4082, steal treasury of 780 at 1263
2 @ 20% - steal Demo for 5443, steal treasury for 1895
1 @ 10%
1 @ 0%
Steal treasury for 1263. Left with 6370 vs 819. Try to steal Demo for 5443 and succeed. (12th steal)
Revolt to Emancipation after a round of drafting, and move my stack up to Bordeaux. I still think he'll be able to do some upgrades, just hopefully not IBT. In fact in case it helps, I revolt Bordeaux for 405.

1858 Louis is still 1 turn from Assembly line; maybe the Bordeaux revolt helped. 2 spies left there. First revolt fails, second succeeds for around 450. Daniel Cole is sitting in Bordeaux but I don't think I want to infiltrate it again. Probably I want to infiltrate Justinian. Isabella is probably the next military target, but she doesn't have Steel. Besides, Visegrad is very close to Kiev for cheap theft Meanwhile, I'm expecting to lose a lot of units taking Bordeaux. I have 11 Rifles, 2 Cossacks, 1 Cuir, 2 Trebs, 5 old medieval units, and 3 healers. Might not make it.
Trebs get Barrage II and start. I have decent luck and after losing 2 Trebs and 2 Rifles, the remaining garrison in Bordeaux is worth a screen shot:


1860 even though I possess the entire French homeland, stupid Charlie does not declare independence. Culture from Bremen is cramping my style, so I move units to Paris for healing and to finish Charlie. Louis's military seems to be gone. His Cav/Treb stack in Russia has dwindled out, he has several CG Rifles in my Gems city, and some colonies somewhere.

I have a gold reserve of 1000 and not many units to upgrade. Switch EPs to Isabella (down to 596 with Louis, enough for whatever) and raise esp to 20% so that I'm at 0, 20, 20.

1862 Daniel Cole infiltrates Visegrad. Charlie declares independence! But he won't cap, and neither will Louis. Louis will give me back Gems city + map + 480 for peace. I don't know if he would have given me Steel but no city; that might have been a good deal. He won't do Steel + city. I take it.

I thought I had revolted to Emancipation, but didn't, and do it now.

1864 Charlie has upgraded to Infantry. CG3, Dril 1 Infantry. And I don't have Cannons. Argh.
I start laying down more cottages and watermills in my flatland cities.
I take cities off wealth and resume builds, mostly Trebs. 3 more turns and I can steal Steel from Justinian at 50% stationary.

Adjust EPs: Isabella 4, the other major powers and Ragnar 1. Running 0/20/20 at -89 GPT, with 1295 in the bank.

1870 Qin cancels the Pu Pu, yet again. I am his worst enemy, yet again..

1874 Saladin (I believe) is vigorously sabotaging my stupid chokepoint city Balanjar. Go ahead, Saladin.
I finally steal Steel, for 1890 at 50% stationary, from Visegrad, and enter the Industrial era. All trebs upgraded. Spies take on an attractive appearance.

1878 steal Corporation for 1080 (13th steal). EPs on Justinian down to 588. Planned tech path is:
Steam Power
Assembly Line
Scientific Method
State Property
Fascism
I think I can do most of it on great spies. But I'm starting to put down cottages.

Somehow get a great Merchant in Paris. Well, that takes the cake. A Great Merchant! In Paris! He offers exactly diddly squat (1300) for a trade mission to anywhere. I had thought this was a design flaw when I played Rhye's and Fall of Civilization, but I think it must be a scaling problem with Huge size maps. Save him for a Golden Age. I have more than enough EPs to revolt Isabella's two cities (too many, was careless), but she's on the heels of Steam Power, so that will make a good non-great spy steal target. Save the Merchant for a GA.

1880 Salzburg revolts again, but I finally have enough Cannon (7) to move on Bremen. This draws half his Protective Infrantry out to attack Paris, which is good.

Advancing on Bremen, I run out of money and switch to 0% everything at +14. Ouch. Will have to build wealth.

Justinian is voted the pope by a landslide. Nobody votes for me. Not surprising, as I've been lax about diplo.

In 1886 some interesting events occur.









And my recent conquests:



At least I have a ROARING economy. No wait, actually I'm on STRIKE.

1886. Even if I can get enough $ to upgrade both defenders in Balanjar to CG2 Rifles, there's no way the city will hold. I see no alternative to giving the city to Justinian. Then Saladin will at least have to go around, through desert, and I can meet him with Cannons and draftees (not that I have any draft happiness left.)

Meanwhile, I simply must leave my attack stack in to finish Charlie and take at least Barcelona from Isabella to relive the worst cultural pressure from West Europe. I should be able to do that before Infantry. I do send my cavalry units back into Russia, however.

1890 Arabian Riflemen and Camels attack Marseilles. Insanely, Saladin has OB with Isabella. To add insult to injury, there's a Spanish revolt in Marseilles on the same turn.
Move units up to Ribe.

1892 Charlie vassalizes to Qin, who also has Cyrus and Genghis. Raze Ribe, losing about half dozen Rifles. No nearby partisans. Advance all non-critical garrison units to Marseilles for assault on Barcelona. 14th steal: Steam Power from Isabella for ~2400 at max stationary. That leaves 630, +100 per turn, to revolt Barcelona. 2 Spies in Barcelona.

1896 Qin takes my Gems city from one Cossack with one Cavalry. So much for my UU. I retake it the next turn with garrison units that were on the way and start rebuilding the stinking AP buildings yet again.

1898 Declare on Isabella, forgetting yet again that that will kick my spies out of her territory.
Also, apparently Rome has flipped to her. I noticed the revolts, but did not notice the flip.

1900 Isabella softens my Barcelona stack with Cannons and picks off a couple Rifles from Rome that I can't afford to lose.
Another civ declares on me, but it's Korea. Ha, ha. Korea.
I take Barcelona, but the culture that is still visible is overwhelmingly pressuring my old cities. I don't really have enough units left to hold Barcelona anyway, so I raze it. My goal will be to take and hold Rome.

IBT lose units to Isabella and Saladin in field skirmishes.

1901 Get another great person in Paris (!): the tenth great spy, John Barlow.


Saladin's SOD is approaching Stalingrad, softened with cannon but still ~21 rifles 3 cav 11 musket 5 LB 11 camel 3 treb. Stalingrad is defended by 6 rifles and 6 other.
Put a GG on a LB in Stalingrad (CG3/Drill) partly just for the free upgrade.

Isabella and I have a roughly equal number of rifles in the theater, plus she has a few more in Santiago.
Well... maybe I'll get lucky. I move spies and units towards Rome.

1902 voted out of war with Isabella.

1904 Saladin does get Stalingrad. He still has 19 units right there (injured) and reinforcements of 7 Rifles 5 LBs 2 Camels on the way. Most of these units have CG2+. I'll never get Stalingrad back. That looks like curtains for game #2.

( ^ 1886 - 1904 (9 turns))



I'll try again. I suspect the spy strategy from this game is still my best bet. I'm thinking about how to refine it.

Problems I know of:

• letting spy production get behind great spy production.
• unfocused use of commerce espionage and commerce in general. With trades for happy, I had more commerce than I'd expected.
• some general sloppiness. I think tile management was OK, trades were decent, diplo was sloppy. I'm not sure what in this last game the benefits of better diplo would have been, but it's clear that every bit will help.

Things maybe to change:

• shorter wars, maybe earlier too. Need some way not to get engulfed by Euro culture. I'm thinking maybe
  war 1 just Danzig, to trim back Louis (if only a little) and get a better cultural foothold.
  war 2 just Salzberg. See if I can catch him by surprise, and then it's on a hill for defense. Then I'm 3 tiles from Rome.
  war 3 just Rome, cap Charlie
  Then maybe Justinian instead of Louis, to trim him back and for culture? Hmm.
  I still think I need to knock down the 4 big Euros, Justinian, Saladin, and Qin. Maybe I could race some of them to space after knocking down the rest... but I haven't yet given up hope of finding a way to Domination.
  Another thing I might be able to do is raze Danzig or Visegrad while they're still barb-owned. However I'd have to sacrifice my Horse Archers, and that would mean more barbs to my East.
  Alternatively I could _wait_ until Rifling and attack with upgraded CR Maces (using money probably saved up by running at 100% wealth), but that's (a) a lot of Maces (b) attacking 2 or 3 civs near-simultaneously
• build an economy? I don't know. Easier said than done, and can't be done without giving up something else.

Things I liked:

• I liked the area I expanded into, but I wonder if should give up some settlers/workers in exchange for more medieval attack units.
• I liked the use of drafting in the Rifle era. I regrew faster than I thought. I still suspect I can do better by working tiles, though.
• I liked befriending Ragnar. I had pretty much decided this for sure at the end of game 1, but... I no longer think +2 from his Silver is at all worth the distraction of attacking a secondary power.

This is great as a sort of espionage tutorial.

Bump for this thread's thousands of adoring fans (no no, please. please) - I will come back to this, but I'm partly taking a break from it (my Blademaster just got to Level 16 in Hellgate London), and partly playing through false starts, trying different tactics.

Good try on the Russians, guess it can be tough when AIs dogpile you. Well, if you want a more peaceful game, you can always try Incans or Aztecs on prince level.