[BtS-Scenario] Discussion: Age of Discovery

Dale

Mohawk Games Developer
Joined
Mar 14, 2002
Messages
7,849
Okay folks, IF (note I said "if" not that I "will" do it) I were to convert the popular AoD mod to BtS, what changes would you like to see?

I'd like to see the following:
1. Add South America and African West Coast.
2. More Indian city names.
3. BtS piracy (with Pirate Hunters modified to fit).
4. Better trading concept between New and Old Worlds (in other words drop the auto-trading vessels for different method).
5. Start 1418 which marks both the darkest time for France (fall of Paris to the Duke of Burgandy) and the historical beginning of the Age of Exploration (first part of the Age of Discovery) and European colonisation with Portugal's discovery and settlement of the Madeira Islands by Henry the Navigator.
 
Dale, I hope you do convert it, as it has lots of potential (and already won awards).


#1, 2, 3, and 5 sounds good to me.

On #4, I kind of like the auto-trading vessels, but I think there needs to be more depth to the system, especially what drives it. And the AI needs to know how to use it of course too. I get the feeling that Vanilla Civ's AI is way to dumb to use it right, as I only got robbed like a few times. And predicting the generation of vessels seems just plain random to me. And I could park my pirate vessels fearlessly near the enemy. Hmm?

On #4, I'd go for way more resources, and some civ-traits on resources. Like for instance the Native Americans should be able to pull fur out on demand for anyone (and really there should be more fur on the map anyway). Central americans would have odds and ends of silver and gold on demand.
All in all, I'd look to Colonization! as a model to improve the economy some, but I wouldn't completely trash the system in place. It's something of a placeholder, but it can be expanded. Colonization! got about everything right, except for a bit too much micro-management.

Main things I'd like BTS to fix is:

Europe is way too placid with the Christendom thing, yet it should be having lots of orthodoxy wars, and simultaneously explodes way too rapidly in colonization. There should be more tension and strife in Europe which will discourage the type of scattered, hopscotch colonization. The stock marriage events/quests should play into the blood lines of the rulers, and not just be religion diplo. Quests based of Henry the VIII are a must.
Also perhaps mod the diplo effects of religion. Perhaps having a common religion should be decreased in value (less than a 4 mod), and cultural border tensions should be higher? Perhaps as religious schisms develop, if you fail to persecute them from your cities (Inquistor unit anyone?), it will affect your common religion modifier (so no +4 mod, if you passively allow schisms in your cities). Inquisitions of course cost lives, unhappiness, and might promote civil wars and revolts!

The AI doesn't grow it's cities smartly (at least in vanilla Civ4):
I had a pop 23! city about ~ Carolinas, and a size 19 at about Yucatan and Antilles. The AI mostly had 5 to 9 size cities, but tons more cities than me. Clearly the AI is not sharp on growth, and clearly there's not enough tension, and too rapid colonization. The AI notoriously is racing for the nice spots, and then goofing them up by one square, as if to dare you to actually conquer and keep that city. :lol:
The BTS AI is much smarter I'd guess.

Massive cultural spread too fast, and colonies survive to easily:
I like how you cut out cheap culture from missionaries conversions, but I think the answer may be to cut the cultural spread of buildings more. And have regular natural disaster events like the blizzards in the Age of Ice mod (of course the events could be diseases, food events, surprise barb raids). Unhappiness or sickness before Astronomy (Ocean trade) should cause the colonies some serious heartaches as they don't have the motherland right next door to help them.


Hopscotching placement of colonies:
Sometimes the AI, in it's believe that more, smaller colonies are best, will try to insert them in the most ridiculous places, as if it thinks it can win some kind of culture war, or open a back door. I'd suggest deterring that by making colony maintenance costs even more for distance. Then to compensate for that, there should be regional colonial capitals (like Viceroy capitals) that mediate the distance maintenance costs to the true capital some. So in other words, perhaps a number of "subordinate" palaces, with the number allowed fixed to the total number of cities in the civ. Perhaps something like 1 subordinate palace for every 3 cities in the civ, with the distance maintenance cost paid based on distance to the closest subordinate palace; That and increase the base maintenance cost for distance.

Movement scale distortion by water. Obviously galleys are too slow, yet they only stay in the med. I though maybe caravels should be 1 tile faster or so. At any rate, perhaps have different speeds for different tile types? Like med sea tiles would be blazing fast, while mid-Atlantic ocean tiles would be relatively slow. I think that should correct for any distortions of travel times.

G'luck!


Okay folks, IF (note I said "if" not that I "will" do it) I were to convert the popular AoD mod to BtS, what changes would you like to see?

I'd like to see the following:
1. Add South America and African West Coast.
2. More Indian city names.
3. BtS piracy (with Pirate Hunters modified to fit).
4. Better trading concept between New and Old Worlds (in other words drop the auto-trading vessels for different method).
5. Start 1418 which marks both the darkest time for France (fall of Paris to the Duke of Burgandy) and the historical beginning of the Age of Exploration (first part of the Age of Discovery) and European colonisation with Portugal's discovery and settlement of the Madeira Islands by Henry the Navigator.
 
I only played one game so maybe it was just strange but I found that the lesser civs were colonizing a little to (i.e Scotland).
I also think that the religions should be placed with python so that they will be spread historically. Maybe the player could have the choice between converting or not converting. If they convert, a majority of their cities gain the religion and if they don't convert, a little to none of the cities gain the religion.
I exploration should be harder to do. As should colonial expansion.
 
If you mean "too much", I've seen that too. Every power had a few cities, even Germany, which had like Belize in my one game. France was a very rabid colonizer, but then Scotland colonized all over her border. Portugal leap-frogged my several cities's hold on Texas with a single one in ~oklahoma. Then the dutch put a worthless one on some plains wedged between south Texas and the Aztecs. and so on and son.

Making exploration harder would be interesting. Maybe a logistics limit on how far a unit can travel on land outside of cultural borders, short of perhaps a Great Explorer unit that can move uninhibited?

I only played one game so maybe it was just strange but I found that the lesser civs were colonizing a little to (i.e Scotland).
I also think that the religions should be placed with python so that they will be spread historically. Maybe the player could have the choice between converting or not converting. If they convert, a majority of their cities gain the religion and if they don't convert, a little to none of the cities gain the religion.
I exploration should be harder to do. As should colonial expansion.
 
That would be cool. Just dont have every one start with one pike per city. Also, if it is possible without using a bigger map, try and include india, they were a big sources of spice. Final thing, spearman should NOT recieve +100% vs cavalry. The aztecs had spearman, and how did they fare againts mounted conquistadors? Not very well.
 
Thanks for the feedback, anything else? :)
 
How about a map of North and South America and then off to the East one island European capitals. You could create a new resource called "Europe" not only would it yield tons of shields, it would be required to build European units. Kind of a throw back to "Colonization" where you have to move you units to the New World.
 
There are two small bugs I've noticed in the scenario, at least on my computer. One, whenever a trading ship returns to the homeland, the sign for the turn ending never comes up, and the game never cycles to certain units- so I have to go around to all my units, seeing if any of them haven't gone yet, and then manually end the turn.

Also, when the game first loads the graphics of the minimap are really messed up, with the seas in weird, neon colors and the whole thing very pixellated. However, later I went into the worldbuilder, and then after that the map was normal.

A few suggestions- I definitely second the thing about more techs giving some bonus, the tech tree as it is is a little boring.

Perhaps for religion and city placement something could be adopted off of Rhye's and Fall of Civilization; that does an awesome job at making things more realistic. Scripted events for historical events would be great too. And finally, this seems to be already being addressed, but if things in Africa could be made more realistic; the map as a whole is awesome (no one does the Caribbean in this much depth), but I cringe every time I see the West Africa cut-off after Morocco.

Final note, generally an amazing scenario; I'm really looking forward to a possible BtS update!
 
Move irregulars and riflemen earlier in the tech tree. Make corporation require another high level tech, as it is possible to get infantry (and the 2 factories) by 1580. And also, 2 factories? In adjacent techs? It is overpowering to anyone who doesn't beeline Assembly Line. I like the current start date. I would like civs being more willing to trade colony cities, but they should place a HUGE value on them. Civs should also have code to build workers in Europe and ship them over to improve New World lands. The overseas colonies feature from BtS will go great with this mod.
 
Probably nothing else other than to make each tech have some tangible effect.
I think it's cool that the tech tree is so accurate and detailed, but something of a let down that there's such a large number of techs between payoffs. I think having the currently blank techs give great people for being first to them, would be good, since that would enable some lightbulbing.

Thanks for the feedback, anything else? :)
 
First draft of the tech tree is attached. You'll notice that nearly every tech now has something to give. :)

There's been a few changes to unit progression and a do-over of the naval line. There's now two obvious lines, trade and military vessels.
 
Possibly move England farther away from mainland Europe and add special "English" sea squares which take 10 movement cost to move in 2 spaces around England, so players can't move in and take cities out of the fog. And a wonder in London that makes the squares have 1 movement cost to the controller, or gives mobility to ships? Don't know if this is possible.
 
I had two things.
1) more realistic resource placment. example: No fur on the islands and not dyes or banana in canada/N. America.
2) fix problem that when highlighting over resource the name is correct but the symbol isn't.

It would be awsome if you updated this scenario!
 
I'm rebuilding the mod from scratch. This means that everything is up for grabs. :)

I've currently got all the techs in, and are working on the units now.

Might as well take this opportunity to introduce two new guys to the mod:
Great Explorer: A super-explorer who has the ability to name terrain features
Great Statesman: Can be added to a city for an as-yet unannounced victory path ;)
 
Cool, the Statesmen from Colonization! I guess "Liberty" is that victory condition!

Nice to see something new like the Great Explorer. Will they be able to generate culture (make a legal claim) on the terrain features they discover?

I'm rebuilding the mod from scratch. This means that everything is up for grabs. :)

I've currently got all the techs in, and are working on the units now.

Might as well take this opportunity to introduce two new guys to the mod:
Great Explorer: A super-explorer who has the ability to name terrain features
Great Statesman: Can be added to a city for an as-yet unannounced victory path ;)
 
1) A merchant unit. Spain transport a lot of gold from the new world. so if you have a unit, it could even use the great merchant graphics, that can do a trade mission (although much lower maybe 50 gold at most) that you can build from a special building that requires gold or silver in the city radius. that would be very cool.


2) commodities. This is more of an idea I've been throwing around but instead of having wheat, corn, cows, in the new world have it so that you have to build farms and plantations in the new world to get these crops (using the discover resource thing like mines) that way you can build other colonies that create cotton and tobaco. a corporation modification that converts these resources to gold would fit nicely.

3) thats al I can think of now, but I'm sure I'll pester you later :)
 
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