CIV103: Espionage Economy at Prince, pregame thread

CIV103 will be on running the Espionage Economy. This is a powerful alternative to more typical strategies, and I think, under-represented on the forums. It is a lot of fun too.


I've chosen some possiblities for a leader to use. Please respond if you have any comments, or would like to see a particular leader used.

Isabella: SPI/EXP. A good trait and a poor trait. Interesting because the UB, the citadel is a EP building (castles are +25% EPs) giving +5 exp to siege. Since an espionage game tends to be very much a warmonger game, this will be useful.

Saladin: SPI/PRO Nothing overpowering here. The UU is ok, a resourceless knight with an extra 15% withrdawal. If lacking metal, the camel archer gives an offensive unit that can capture it. The madrassa is no huge help, a double culture library that allows priest specialists, but libraries will likely only be built where culture is needed, so not useless.

Hammurhabi: AGG/ORG The bowman is a decent archer with + to melee. The garden is ok: a colosseum with +2 health.

Brennus: SPI/CHA Neither the UU or UB are terribly special. Traits are decent but neither weak nor overpowering.

Qin: IND/PRO Any IND leader I use must have a weaker second trait. The Cho-Ko-Nu is a nice unit, a Crossbow with +1 first strike and collateral damage. Pavilion is theatre with +25% culture.

Hatshephut: SPI/CRE. CRE can be nice for an EE because libraries and universities aren't needed for science, so some extra culture is nice.

Churchill: CHA/PRO The Stock Exchange is nice for an economy that is sure to be producing a lot of gold.

Zara Yaqob: CRE/ORG Another option with non-extraordinary traits.

Charlemagne: PRO/IMP Could be an interesting choice. I've never played him, and PRO and IMP are considered by many to be perhaps the 2 weakest traits. The UU and UB, however are nice. The Landsknecht, a pikeman with +100% against melee is a very versatile unit, and the Rathaus, a courthouse decreasing maintenance by 75% is extremely strong for an EE.

Asoka: SPI/ORG A solid leader with good UU and UB. The fast worker never obsoletes, and Mausoleums are +2 happy jails.

Genghis Khan: Agg/IMP or
Kublai Khan: Agg/CRE Either are good options. The Keshik is a useful early unit, and the UB, the Ger with an extra +2 exp for mounted just makes them better.

Mehmed: EXP/ORG A nice UU, the janissary is a musket with +25 to melee, mounted, and archery. The UB is also nice. The hammam is a +2 happy aqueduct.

Cyrus: CHA/IMP The leader of choice for getting highly promoted units. Immortals are great if you have someone to rush. The Apothecary is fair, giving +2 health to the grocer.

Some might say that ORG is a lot more powerful for an EE than otherwise, because of the cheap courthouses, the first available espionage building. I don't really think this is the case. Sure, it helps, but most espionage will be coming from the slider. I don't think any one cheap building is a game breaker. One leader I did leave out was Gilgamesh, because I think his Ziggurat, being both cheaper, and available with priesthood would be much more of an advantage.

I want to use a leader without one of the 'easy' traits to use. It's fairly straightforward what to do on Prince level with FIN/PHI/IND. If you are FIN, build lots of cottages, and you should have a strong economy. If PHI, lots of science specialists give the same result. When IND, building all the wonders along with fairly decent play results in a strong game. So we will be playing a game without these traits, except possibly IND, which I will allow, because even if IND, I don't plan on wonderspamming. Part of the strategy will be to delay much GPP generation to later in the game when we can run lots of spy specialists to create Great Spies. Lots of wonders would just make this more difficult.

Now my ideas are not based on actual gaming, as I have barely touched EE yet, but I'd say that cheap courthouses are great, not for the extra espionage (which helps), but for the specialist.
Indeed, if I was to go with an EE, I would probably try it out with Frederick first (PHI/ORG), and go for an army of great spies.
Also cheap courthouses is a nice addition for any large empire, which I feel is the right way to go with an EE. Frederick with the HRE would probably be overkill, but fun.
Now this is speculation at best.

This looks like it'll be very interesting. Can't wait to see it. I'd like to see you pull off an EE warmonger with a slightly tricky civ because then the rest of us less experienced players may be able to do something similar with an easier civ.

Charlemagne would be a good choice for that. PRO/IMP won't help you much and as you've mentioned the courthouse isn't a super EP booster. It may help your economy a bit, but you'll still have to build a large empire to take advantage of it. And while his UU is pretty nice, you need to have an EE already in place to steal the required tech.

If not that, Saladin would be a second choice. Similar traits, similar difficulty in taking advantage of the UU. Similarly almost useless UB. Third choice would be Brennus. CHA would give more military advantage, but otherwise its the same thing.

On the other hand you may decide its best to use a civ that synergises well with EE. Issy, Mehmed, or Cyrus would be nice for that IMO.

I find Charlemagne the most interesting. Saladin or Isabella are probably my next 2 choices. I'm not going for a leader that makes the EE a lot easier ... I am more interested in using a so-so leader. I'm sure a lot of people play random and draw a leader like Saladin and think 'SPI/PRO, what the heck am I supposed to do with that?'. At prince level your traits don't really matter. Basic, strong strategy should win pretty much any game at prince even if you had no traits and no UU or UB. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to leverage whatever trait's we might have. That would be silly.

Charlemagne, Isabella, and Saladin all have fairly unremarkable traits, and although some of the UUs and UBs are nice, none are overpowered like Praetorians or Hammams.

I like Isabella's UB, the citadel. A barracks + citadel + either a GG or exp civic allows 3 promotion trebuchets (which rock).

I like Saladin's UU. The Camel Archer is by no means dominate, but it is the ultimate back-up plan to not having a strategic resource. PRO allows survival to guilds. The Camel Archer allows capturing a resource.

But nothing is set right now. I will probably take these 3 plus any others that get votes (unless I veto them for some reason), and pick one randomly.

Very interesting. I have never attempted an EE aside form abusing an early GW produce Great spy, so I will be watching keenly.

I would prefer a leader not seen much in walkthroughs.

Charlemange or Asoka.

My preference is Chuck. The Imperialistic trait is not all that week, you can expand very early and a beeline to CoL can fix an economy real fast (you can delay currency until you have Fuedalism for deadly protective longbows). The UU is unstoppable until gunpowder.

Asoka can get an early religion, and likely the shrine with the first GP combined with the organized trait and you could be approaching a 100% EP slider. The fast worker helps build faster (the best UU in the game) and the Mausoleum is an EP building.

"When choosing a city to spy from in an empire, there are really only 2 considerations ... distance from your palace (closer is cheaper), and does it have a Security Bureau (you'd rather it not because it adds 50% cost)."

This is a quote from the other thread, but I thought I'd bring this up here...
My question: Does running an EE run the risk of falling behind in the later game if the target civ's (or all of them ) start building Security bureaus and/or spies in their cities? If there is an added cost to missions, combined with the higher risk of getting detected, would it be safe to say that by that point you would like to have the game "in the bag", due to the early advantages of building a strong military. It just strikes me as potentially vulnerable that if your missions fail and there is no science buildings in your cities, keeping up with techs could become problematic....?
Or was this not really a problem in practice?
From my experience (Noble) I get about 60/40 mission sucess...so I was wondering if that's any different for you, or what else you're doing to maximise chances...

I'm very much looking forward to this !

I'd like to see it done with Ghengis Khan. As his combinations of traits provides absolutely zero additions to this strategy whatsoever. I figure if you want to test how well it works, do it under the worst conditions.

• Creative is a bonus because it further reduces the need for libraries and the like (may not be by much, but it's still a bonus). Not to mention, for the buildings you do end up constructing (likely in border cities), Library, theatre are constructed twice as fast.
• Philisophical helps GP production.
• Protective doubles production of castles (again, may not be much, but it's something)
• Organized doubles production of courthouse plus it's inherent maintanence feature.
• Financial is simply the financial trait.
• Industrious - wonders are never a bad thing and this also offsets the fact you won't be in the tech lead. Not to mention spare hammers from non-science institutions.
• Spiritual increases temple production. While very minor, with multiple religions and freed up hammers, border cities could increase culture that much faster. Plus, no anarchy is never a bad thing.

I guess traits that don't directly coincide with this strat in seemingly any way are;

• Charismatic (Though increased happy cap is an early boon so I'd still avoid it)
• Expansive
• Aggresive
• Imperialistic

I wouldn't go with Saladin, as his UB is a + culture library, and I believe we've already established that if libraries are ever being built, it's specifically for the culture bonus. So Saladin adds a bonus. Albeit light.

I'd personally just stay away from anything that even remotely adds a bonus to the intended strat. However minor and insignificant it may be. Go to the extreme to see exactly how effective this strategy can be under the worst conditions. After all, from there it can only really get better.

I do like the idea of going with a leader without clear bonuses to the EE, and even without any of the top traits. So perhaps some combination of:

Spiritual
Expansive
Aggressive
Imperialistic

I think CHA is a pretty strong trait on it's own, so I'm leaning away from that trait. I don't consider Aggressive a top trait at all, and there is no reason to expect it to be any better under an EE than any other. I would consider PRO to be better for EE for 2 reasons ... you may be behind a bit in technology at some point and need protective archery or gunpowder units to hang on for a while, and the double speed walls and castles are nice.

Spiritual I think would be a bit weaker than normal under an EE. It truly shines IMO under SE or a culture game. Caste System is unlikely to be of much use, and it is unlikely we will found any religions. I don't see any problem with using a SPI leader.

2 leaders that come to mind as helping the EE the least are GK and Isabella. Although the Citadel is an espionage building, I would be building them anyway with Isabella, and since she is not PRO, they won't be cheaper, so I don't see any benefit for an EE from the Citadel that one wouldn't normally have (except for it being IMO one of the best UBs, if a bit short lived in usefulness).

I don't have the game here with me right now ... any other leaders that are some combination of SPI/EXP/IMP/AGG?

xanadux said:

I do like the idea of going with a leader without clear bonuses to the EE, and even without any of the top traits. So perhaps some combination of:

Spiritual
Expansive
Aggressive
Imperialistic

I think CHA is a pretty strong trait on it's own, so I'm leaning away from that trait. I don't consider Aggressive a top trait at all, and there is no reason to expect it to be any better under an EE than any other. I would consider PRO to be better for EE for 2 reasons ... you may be behind a bit in technology at some point and need protective archery or gunpowder units to hang on for a while, and the double speed walls and castles are nice.

Spiritual I think would be a bit weaker than normal under an EE. It truly shines IMO under SE or a culture game. Caste System is unlikely to be of much use, and it is unlikely we will found any religions. I don't see any problem with using a SPI leader.

2 leaders that come to mind as helping the EE the least are GK and Isabella. Although the Citadel is an espionage building, I would be building them anyway with Isabella, and since she is not PRO, they won't be cheaper, so I don't see any benefit for an EE from the Citadel that one wouldn't normally have (except for it being IMO one of the best UBs, if a bit short lived in usefulness).

I don't have the game here with me right now ... any other leaders that are some combination of SPI/EXP/IMP/AGG?

Click to expand...

Shaka is Agg/Exp
Justinian is SPir/Imp
Monty is Agg/Spir
Joao is exp/Imp

Shaka's UB helps with maintenance costs, not sure if that affects EE directly
Justinian UB gives out alot of happiness
Monty's UB can recover slave unhappiness fast, good for boosting the military fast
Joaos UB gets you extra commerce on sea tiles but comes pretty late

I still vote for Charlemange but Joao would be interesting.

I'm trying a new game since my last two ended in being mobbed, probably due to bad diplomacy.
This time I'm playing as Kublai Khan. A nice warmonger and I have to say that creative is really nice to have when you don't want to concentrate on building culture buildings.

One thing I've already learned with this game is this: Make certain you start with at least two other civs!! I'm alone on my continent with Mao, and it means I can't attack anyone bc I need some techs to steal to keep up and furthermore, it seems Mao is devoting alot of point to EP! He's outspying me although I've already built the Scotland Yard, probably bc we're alone on the continent. I would have restarted the game to get at least two opponents if my starting location for Karakorum hadn't been so sweet with awesome production. I'm hoping to leverage an EE later on after optics, but right now I'm forced to take the more traditional route..

Thanks madscientist. So now I think the candidates are:

Genghis Kahn, AGG/IMP
Isabella, SPI/EXP
Joao, EXP/IMP

All the others you mentioned, I think have pretty strong UBs that remain strong throughout the game. Although Isabella's Citadel is nice, it is short lived. I actually think Joao may very well be the absolute weakest here, so maybe we should play with him?

I will be playing a Standard map, and will restart if isolated. I see no reason to demonstrate using an EE in a situation you probably shouldn't be using it!

Any suggestions on map type?

Based on my games against him, and his "Punch Me" attitude and face, Joao makes the best candidate for a stealing economy.

I think more than one landmass at least, that way we get to see just how much of an impact distance from own landmass factor in, and the time and effort required to ship spies around and if it can be done in a timely fashion without losing to much time before aquiring new techs.

Gliese 581 said:

I think more than one landmass at least, that way we get to see just how much of an impact distance from own landmass factor in, and the time and effort required to ship spies around and if it can be done in a timely fashion without losing to much time before aquiring new techs.

Click to expand...

I think this is a good idea. So probably continents. I don't think the time for shipping will be a problem with enough foresight to build enough spies, although more spies will have to be built to ensure a continuous supply. The distance factor is significant though, so I agree a pangea type map is out.

As I said before, I'll be doing a standard map. I think standard # of opps is good, so there will be 6 AI. If I do continents, any opinions on whether or not to do custom continents and specify 2 or 3 continents?

Also, any opinions on using Aggressive AI? I've used it a couple times, but usually don't because the consensus seems to be that it slows down AI teching.

AI advantage with aggressive AI: since I will be using espionage for teching, AI being slow doesn't mean I get a tech advantage.

Human advantage with aggressive AI: slower tech rate means I have more EPs to use and more gold to support an army and upgrade. AI is unlikely to ever get close to a substantial tech advantage (not that they probably would anyway on prince level).

I'd go for default settings. The only thing you need to make sure of is that you end up with some AI on your continent.

I don't think Agg AI or not will make a huge impact since you will probably want to be a warmonger, correct? No matter what the tech pace is, you'll be at the same level as the top civ(s) if all goes as planned. You'll have a little stiffer resistance to your warring but less risk of a Mansa Musa runaway techer that grabs all of the one time bonuses which would still add up alot even if you're keeping pace with stealing. But it's on prince so I don't think it's very probable.
Agg AI might be a little more difficult with Joao bc it makes rexing more dangerous.

This'll be interesting. I just played my first BTS game where I had consistent espionage advantage over my opponents. Granted, it was Noble, but hey! At least I tried!
Recommended Stuff:
Map: Big and Small, or Archipelago/Snaky Continents.
Leader: Joao-He can pump out Settlers and Workers quick, enabling heavy early expansion. Plus, Cottages can be made earlier, making research to Alphabet a whole lot easier.

I'll be shadowing this game. I can't wait to see how it plays out!

What about Gilgamesh? The Ziggeraut is available with Priesthood, so you can get a straight 2 EP per city sooner...

And the Vulture is like an axeman with better axe rush potential (but it's still no swordsman for attacking cities).

Gnarfflinger said:

What about Gilgamesh? The Ziggeraut is available with Priesthood, so you can get a straight 2 EP per city sooner...

And the Vulture is like an axeman with better axe rush potential (but it's still no swordsman for attacking cities).

Click to expand...

Gilgamesh would be a good candidate for an EE. In addition to the nice UU and UB, both CRE and PRO are useful for an EE. But I want to use a leader that is as hard as possible to play. In CIV101, I used a financial leader for a CE, and in CIV102 a Philisophical leader for a SE. Although it's important to get the most of good traits, I also have gotten a lot of feedback from people wanting to see how to play without good traits.