Always go for Apostolic Palace?

An AI opponent got the AP in my most recent game, and it really seems to have helped them. The other three AI on the continent switched to that relgion (ok, only one switched, the other two already had the relgion.)

So is the AP something that should be gone for every game?

Also, I'm starting to think that I screwed up putting off sailing for such a long time, maybe my religion would have spread instead... I just didn't have any costal cities for such a long time.

I like the AP for the hammer bonus more than anything. The larger your empire, the more useful it is. Best, though, is if one of your nearby 'buddies' gets Theology first, let them build it, and then liberate it if you want, or just let them keep it. +4 hammers per city is very nice, and then if you add in UofS and SM (because you have all the buildings anyway, or will), you have a nice little boost in every city from your religious buildings. I can see the votes being useful, but in my experience, they usually don't have much positive or negative effect on the game.

Yes, I had no idea about the production bonus until this current game, where everyone else on the continent were united under the AP and they started spreading their relgion to me. I was suprised when I saw that building the monestaries (which I was going to do anyway) was netting cities +2 extra hammers. This was a huge boon for my coastal cities, which had very low production to begin with.

You don't need to build the AP to get its hammer benefits. If another player builds the AP you only need get and spread the AP religion to your cities to get the main benefit (2 hammers per building). What is useful and profitable is having the holy shrine of the AP religion as other civs will usually spread the religion for you. So if you have the shrine of your religion and you want to propogate it then build the AP.

Once the AP has been built there is no particular advantage in capturing it. It is essentially just a source of 2 GPPs / turn having done its job. It is a great idea to capture the Holy Shrine of the AP religion though I like the voting system and try to become the AP resident so I can control what is happening as it can have a big impact on alliances and gameplay in the middle game.

So far I have yet to build the AP myself in any of my games, although I have captured it a few times and I try to get and spread the religion and make it my state religion. Then as others have said I try to pick up either UoS or SM for additional benefits. You have to own the wonders for their bonusses.

I only build the AP if I have a clear shot at it, and only for AI denial (I don't like the AIs voting peace with me).

I almost always build it myself just to keep the AI from irritating me with it throughout the game. I don't usually focus on getting christianity first, but usually manage to get it in time to build the AP because it doesn't appear that the AI really prioritizes building it (the way it seems to prioritize the great lighthouse, etc.). After the first time, I've never bothered to go for the diplomatic victory with the AP--makes the game too boring. I suppose I could just disable diplomatic victory and forget about the whole thing, but I do like the religious aspects of the game...

I think Control of the AP is what is important. If you have to build it to get elected, then go ahead. If your neighbor builds it but you control it through diplomacy and more "holy" cities there is no need to waster the hammers.

I think I've never built the AP. Sometimes it could be useful though, so i voted for the third option.

The AP can be especially useful when going for a cultural victory. Sometimes you have a lot of little junk cities just so they can build temples to allow cathedrals. Starting off with the AP temple and monastery can give these little cities a lot more production.

Well, I suppose that if you thought that the AI would build the AP with your state religion, it doesn't matter if you or they build it. But this is almost never the case. If you don't build it, it's also possible it will be built by a Civ that you have no contact far across the Ocean. They will get all the production benefits and you will be stuck with nothing!

Further, I've heard that building the AP will convince the AI to switch to your state relgion, although I'm not sure if that's true since I haven't built the AP in any games.

DarkSchneider said:

Well, I suppose that if you thought that the AI would build the AP with your state religion, it doesn't matter if you or they build it. But this is almost never the case. If you don't build it, it's also possible it will be built by a Civ that you have no contact far across the Ocean. They will get all the production benefits and you will be stuck with nothing!

Further, I've heard that building the AP will convince the AI to switch to your state relgion, although I'm not sure if that's true since I haven't built the AP in any games.

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Example where it is not the case. I built the AP in my RPC Bismark game, state religion Judaism. Qin had alot of Jewish cities but I had to bribe him to convert for betty diplomacy. AFter ten turns he switched back to Buddhism to be the same religion as his Neighbor Justinian. An example of when the AI will not convert due to the AP.

As with the UN, I'd rather have myself be eligible as Resident/Secretary-General because I have a large population (with the necessary religion in the case of the AP) than because I built the wonder.

Generally, three things happen with the AP:

1) It gets built with your own current state religion which is well spread within your borders. This is fine, and I usually aim to have enough population by this point (having won an early war and by using an SE) to qualify as Resident anyway.

2) It gets built for some religion you have no part of, probably on another continent entirely. This is fine; I miss out on the hammers but I don't have to worry about it's diplomatic effects at all, which is useful as I am often pursuing war against one of my co-religionists at this stage of the game.

3) It gets built for some religion which is a minority one within your borders: the most annoying possibility. Usually results from a game that was in state 2) where I captured a city with that religion. Fortunately, (I think), the unhappiness from defying the resolutions is restricted to cities which have the AP's religion, so you just sigh and defy everything that comes up (since it will almost certainly be resolutions trying to stop your current war).

The best reason to build it is if you have a relatively small empire but good diplomatic relations, which I find typically happens in my cultural-win games.

cabert said:

I only build the AP if I have a clear shot at it, and only for AI denial (I don't like the AIs voting peace with me).

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... whereas i adore the AP for using it as a "get KMad out of war free" card! it's a beautiful thing. i have completely ignored Mass Media to keep the AP alive in all but 1 game that's gone that far *giggle*. and i don't use it to win diplomatic victory, i just use it to get diplomacy to help with whatever victory condition i decide to go for.

i certainly don't think everybody should always build it, even if the price was 1/4 the hammers it is. but for my style it's very often very useful. mileages and playstyles are so different tho, there are almost no "always"s.

It's also pretty sick when you've got the AP, Spiral Mineret and University of Sankore. Every religious building gives you +2 hammers, +2 science and +2 gold on top of whatever it does normally.

Still, I think the +2 hammers is the best effect, since you're fine getting most of your science production from one city (generally your capitol) while every city needs production.

DarkSchneider said:

It's also pretty sick when you've got the AP, Spiral Mineret and University of Sankore. Every religious building gives you +2 hammers, +2 science and +2 gold on top of whatever it does normally.

Still, I think the +2 hammers is the best effect, since you're fine getting most of your science production from one city (generally your capitol) while every city needs production.

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You forgot the Sistene Chapel, +5 culture.

I don't usually build it, but in my last game, I built the Oracle for Theology (would have gone for Code of Laws, except I was Gilgamesh and wanted to justify having Ziggurats by avoiding Code of Laws ). I decided that for fun, I would do a religion-heavy game by spreading Christianity wherever I could (not exactly easy since four other civs each founded their own religion and weren't quite amiable) and by building the AP to toy with my rivals.

DarkSchneider said:

It's also pretty sick when you've got the AP, Spiral Mineret and University of Sankore. Every religious building gives you +2 hammers, +2 science and +2 gold on top of whatever it does normally.

Still, I think the +2 hammers is the best effect, since you're fine getting most of your science production from one city (generally your capitol) while every city needs production.

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Yeah, I consider this combo to be the secret "religious victory"--use this combo to leap to pretty much any of the other types of victory. (Add sistene chapel to the list though if you want the cultural victory.)

I just stumbled over something...

For the purpose of those 2 hammers per religions building it might be better not to build the AP yourself. It obsolets when the civ that built it techs Mass Media. As long as this is not the case, you will get those 2 Hammers per Temple/Monastery/Cathedral even after you have researched Mass Media (assuming you do it before the AP owner does).

Refar said:

I just stumbled over something...

For the purpose of those 2 hammers per religions building it might be better not to build the AP yourself. It obsolets when the civ that built it techs Mass Media. As long as this is not the case, you will get those 2 Hammers per Temple/Monastery/Cathedral even after you have researched Mass Media (assuming you do it before the AP owner does).

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Wow, if this is true, and your 'friendly neighbor' on the same continent builds it, just take all their cities but the one with the AP, and enjoy the benefits the entire game.

xanadux said:

Wow, if this is true, and your 'friendly neighbor' on the same continent builds it, just take all their cities but the one with the AP, and enjoy the benefits the entire game.

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True, except that the game is already over by the point you get to Mass Media! Actually, I always build the Eiffel Tower, so I wait to research Mass Media until I've gotten the rocketry line of techs.