Most important things about C3C vs. PTW?

I'm a long-time Emperor-level PTW player and I've only recently got C3C. I'm looking to give it a try once my current conquest is complete, so what are the main things I'll need to know to take advantage of C3C? You can be concise - I've done some reading already so I should know what you're talking about.

Here are some points off the top of my head:

• 50 turn research vs. 40
• First to philosophy gets free advance vs. nothing at all
• Civil engineers are a shield-producing specialist
• Agricultural trait - what does that do and what other new traits are there?
• Lots of new units - what ones are best?
• Some new wonders - which are best?

FP doesn't create a 2nd core. Build asap to reduce empire corruption but don't worry too much where.

Forget about RCP; build your cities where you want.

Scientists give 3 beakers rather than one so are just so much more powerful.

Tone hit some good highlights. I'll add a bit more, but since I went straight from vanilla to C3C, I'm unclear what was added in PTW.

Donny Brook said:

Civil engineers are a shield-producing specialist and cops can retrieve a shield and gold otherwise lost to corruption/waste. Tax men collect 2 gold, rather than only 1.

Agricultural trait - what does that do and what other new traits are there? The city center produces 1 extra food in Despotism if settled on fresh water. This can be huge for settler factories. Aqueducts are cheaper.

The Seafaring trait is new and allows an extra movement point to boats, and there is extra gold for cities built on the coast, plus cheaper harbors.

Lots of new units - what ones are best? I'm not certain of all the new ones, but there are many improvements in upgrade paths, such as Swords to MDI and then to Guerilla, then to TOW Infantry. Cats upgrade to Trebs, which seems to be more accurate.

Some new wonders - which are best? The Statue of Zeus produces an Ancient Cavalry every 5 turns, but you need Ivory to build it. It can be a lifesaver if you have no horses or iron.

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Seafaring also reduces the chances your ships will sink and ensures a coastal start -- very nice for island maps.

Tone said:

FP doesn't create a 2nd core.

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In C3C I thought the FP created a second core for distance but not rank. Please correct me if I am wrong. Also, does the courthouse decrease distance corruption, rank corruption, or both?

the courthouse reduces both, I believe.

The FP does create a second core for distance, but not rank. That's why you put it reasonably close to the capitol - if you get too far out, rank corruption just kills all the cities anyway.

Another large difference is that MGL's can no longer rush a wonder, only an improvement or make an army. Conquests introduces an SGL, which can be used to rush a wonder. You have a chance to get an SGL when you are first to research a tech. (5% for scientific civs, 3% otherwise)

Contact trading is moved to Printing press from I think Writing.
Map trading is moved to navigation from Map Making.
Radio (end of the IA) is removed from the tech tree.

new Units:

Feudalism gives medieval infantry, which is a sword upgrade and upgrades to Guerilla
Replaceable Parts gives guerillas, which is a resourceless unit that upgrades from both MDI and Longbows.

Wonders in CSC:

- Statue of Zeus and Knights Templar (Math and Chivalry) produce powerful units without any expenditure of shields. SoZ has a lot of culture.
- Temple of Artemis puts a temple in every city on the continent. Very powerful in some types of games, but it's expensive and is only good until Education.
- Shakespeare's Theater has 8 culture AND acts as a hospital. Still useless except for a 20K city.
- Mauselum of Mausollos (Philosophy) gives 2 content citizens in the city it's built. nice for 20K games, not so much for anything else.

AutomatedTeller said:

Another large difference is that MGL's can no longer rush a wonder, only an improvement or make an army. Conquests introduces an SGL, which can be used to rush a wonder.

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MGL's cannot rush Great Wonders - they can still rush Small Wonders. SGL's can rush anything.

Chamnix said:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=104294&page=2

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Thanks for the link. I am certain that the single-scientist research tactic is 50 turns in C3C vs. 40 in PTW, correct? It's amazing that the linked thread makes no mention of this change despite the input of many of this site's luminaries. If no one else can see it there, then maybe I should offer it up as an addendum? The thread is three years old, but hey, I'm living proof that it's still pertinent to some.

The unit chart says the Mayan javelin thrower has a 1/3 chance to enslave. What happens when you "enslave" an opponent?

For the Mayan JT, the enslaved unit becomes a slave worker. For the English Man-O-War, which also enslaves, the enslaved unit becomes another Man-O-War, I believe.

There are also 2 new governments feudalism and fascism.
Feudalism looks like monarchy with whip rushing and peculiar troops suport (5-2-1 i think) and fascism looks like a super feudalism with workers efficiency improved by 100%. very useful ... for AI.

And republic gives now support (1-3-4) to your troops. That makes republic the strongest government by far. That also makes corrupt cities very useful (support and improved scientists)

The Javelin Thrower is a good and bad unit for the Mayans. The good: free slaves from barb villages. Barb farming can give you tons of free workers, making a human-controlled Mayan empire extremely well-developed early in the game. They also have an extra defense over the Archer, being ADM 2-2-1. The bad: they cost 10 more shields, at 30 shields they are a pricey AA unit. They also lack the defensive free-shot that Archers get in C3C, and since they supplant that unit, you have no archer units until Longbows. Overall, if you want to go Conquest as a VC, the Mayans give you a nice start. Actually, all the Agricultural civs are great for any victory type, they grow like weeds!

Since the site so generously gave me a double-post, I will go on about my other favorite units. The Spanish have a nifty unit, the conquistador. He costs as much as a knight and has 3/4 the attack and half the defense, ADM of 3-2-2. So why build them? They have the ability to cross any terrain and treat it as a road, that's why. This includes enemy territory. A C3C Conquistador army is a wonder to play with. You can pillage 3 squares per turn deep in enemy territory and won't be attacked until tanks and bombers, as long as the army stays healthy. Armies are much improved in Conquests. An army now gives one extra movement point added to the slowest unit. For example, an all-cavalry army now has 4 movement. They are also stronger, especially after getting the Military Academy. Have fun!

I thought they gave an extra MP in Vanilla too. From what I recall, they did... My Vanilla knowledge is pretty rusty, so correct me if I'm wrong.

Some of the traits "play differently" in C3C v. PTW/Vanilla. In particular:

• The Industrious Trait was 'toned down'.
• The Scientific Trait offers options not found in Vanilla. Check out Dave McW's "Free Tech Tricks" article in the War Academy.
• Agricultural and Seafaring are new, and have been discussed. Many would argue that the Agricultural trait replaces the Industrious trait as the "best trait" for the human player. Read Bede's article on Specialist Farming and you'll understand why.
• Regardless of trait - forest chops take fewer worker turns.

I'd like to offer my thoughts on Feudalism as a government:

• The Good: Decent unit support, and you can whip your way to a 100k cultural win.
• The Bad: You get the economy of Monarchy and the War-Weariness of Democracy.

On Unique Units - don't overlook the Byzantine Dromon. Really nifty unit.

On Shakespeare's Theater... I respectfully disagree with Automated Teller's assertion. In mid-level games a city with some nice commerce tiles and the Copernicus', Newton's, and Shakespeare's wonders can be quite the science powerhouse. (Note that my comment is "qualified"...)

Another note on wonders: I believe the Great Wall behaves differently... though I almost never pursue that wonder.

IIRC, there are some subtle changes to the game. It seems like a spaceship part got moved out to Robotics...stats on Marines got changed... Bombers get lethal land as well as sea bombardment...cruise missiles have a bit more range...Radar Artillery gets another movement point... movement points for the Industrial Era naval units got changed around quite a bit, and I don't think the Cruiser appeared in PTW...

...and don't forget to check out the Conquests scenarios. There is more to these than customized maps. There are a lot of units in these that don't exist in the epic game. A couple of the Conquests scenarios have remarkable depth.

scoutsout said:

...and don't forget to check out the Conquests scenarios. There is more to these than customized maps. There are a lot of units in these that don't exist in the epic game. A couple of the Conquests scenarios have remarkable depth.

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And those at the mods forum.

I recommend:

• El Justo's Age of Imperialism
• Rise of the Roman Empire (RFRE)
• Medieval Mod II
• Heretic_Cata's All in One Mod - Expansion
• Rise and Rule (RaR)
  

These were the things that struck me when I upgraded from PTW to C3C:

Armies
Armies are deadlier in C3C than PTW in several ways. First, Armies can blitz (attack more than once per turn). They can attack once for every movement point they have available. Two, if the units in an army are the same (all Cavs, for instance), the Army gains a movement point (which would now be 4 for a Cav Army). I don't know if this is true of mixed units in an Army; I've never made an Army like that. Third, Armies get a free pillage (before they move) when in enemy territory. Lastly, Armies can heal inside enemy territory, if they don't move on that turn (but this might be true in PTW, too).

Specialists
With the increase in beakers given to scientists, geek farms are much more productive and lucrative. Civil Engineers are great at reducing construction time on new buildings, but they don't do squat for units. The Cop specialist reduces corruption, which can also increase productivity. Cops work better in the moderately corrupt cities; Hardhats are great out in the sticks for building culture buildings if you are aiming for a culture victory.

New Units
Medieval Infantry (Maces) were introduced in PTW are still around and function much the same in C3C, and so do the guerillas. New units for everyone are Flak and TOW Infantry (and maybe some other Modern Era units.)

Techs
Ironclads is now a separate, optional tech.

CommandoBob said:

Two, if the units in an army are the same (all Cavs, for instance), the Army gains a movement point (which would now be 4 for a Cav Army).

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An army gets one movement point more than the slowest included unit. So if you were unfortunate enough to put a single musket in an army with your cavalry, the whole stack would move just two.

CommandoBob said:

...Third, Armies get a free pillage (before they move) when in enemy territory. Lastly, Armies can heal inside enemy territory, if they don't move on that turn (but this might be true in PTW, too).

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Really? They can heal and pillage in enemy turf w/o wasting a move (only the pillage part)?

I haven't tried to pillage and then see if the Army will heal. Even though the pillage is 'free', it still may count as an action taken and thus make the unit un-healable.

Does anyone know for sure?

Mursi lives said:

Feudalism looks like monarchy with whip rushing and peculiar troops suport (5-2-1 i think).

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I compliment Firaxis for their historical awareness here. Feudalism was the system of an agricultural society. If I was maybe a lowly peasant in that time, and you were a landlord, you could say to me: 'I give you this piece of land to work and make a living from, but the land remains my property and you have to give me a share of your harvest'.
If I was a bit better off, and you were my rich uncle with lots of land, you could say to me: 'I give you this region of mine to look after and govern, but in return you have to provide me with military assistance when I call for it'. That's the way troops were raised.
When cities came up, a monetary and trade system developed that wasn't compatible with the Feudal system. The Feudal system mainly arranged the use of land.
When in civ you've gone for Feudalism, you'll see your unit support drop once your towns grow into cities. This is historically correct.