About that Protective Castle

Been playing Protective leaders lately, and I notice that I'm building some Castles.

At half-price, Castles are just 75 hammers, or 50 with stone. 75 is reasonable and 50 is cheap for something that gives you 1 culture and an extra trade route. (I'm ignoring the Castle's defense bonus because it comes into play very rarely.)

The big problem with the Castle, of course, is its timing. It has a short effective lifespan -- you can't build it until Engineering, and then it goes obsolete with Economics. Those techs are usually not too far apart. To add insult to injury, by the time you get some Castles built, a lot of the AI civs will be picking up Banking and switching to Mercantilism, drastically reducing the value of your trade routes.

Still, it is possible to leverage the cheap Castles for some real benefit. A Castle in a large coastal city will give you a trade route worth 2 or 3 commerce in the midgame. Add a Harbor and that's 3 or 4.5 commerce. If you're running 70% research, the Castle is giving you 2 or 3 beakers, 1 or 1.5 gold, and 1 culture. That's not too bad.

Again, the downside is the Castle's short lifespan. IME this can be extended by avoiding Economics. Obviously if you're in a position to grab it first, you should -- a free Great Merchant is better than a few trade routes. But if you're not, then there's no compelling reason to make Economics a priority.

Anyone else building Castles much?


Waldo

I'm building castles in a few of my cities, but not for any of the reasons you've listed. Rather, I'm doing so for the +25% that Castles provide.

I dont build many castles even if playing a espionage game. Maybe in my Capitol. Most other cities by that time do not have many Esp Points. +25% on Courthouse => 2.5 that is going to be rounded down. It gives you 1 extra Esp if you are running a Spy specialist, but again - you can only run one spy by that time. And by the time you get more Base Espionage to multipy the castes are obsolete.

Pretty much useless overall. Also note that when 'pricing' the castle you have to count the Walls as well. Not that they cost much, still its one more production turn.

And by the time you get more Base Espionage to multipy the castes are obsolete.

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What?! How DARE you compare me to a rediculously poor improvement such as a castle!

Oh wait... nm.

Actually I can not agree with you more. Of course, when I can easily make a castle in just a single turn in my capital, and I already got everything else in there built, I'll go for it.

But as for the other cities, you got a problem. The investment in hammers/time just doesn't seem to be worth it. Unless of course you have very good trade routes, etc.

Back in Vannila, walls were always laughed at, as only rookies built them in most cases. Then in warlords, the idea of building walls to build castles for the extra traderoute was still laughed at, since the castles go obsolete so quick, that investment is usually better put for something else.

Now in BtS, I still have to agree that the castles go POOF just too quick in most cases. It seems Firaxis is well aware there are problems with it, and they keep trying to add small benefits to give an excuse for making it. Unfortunately they just don't want to expand the short lifetime of them.

No, basically like everyone else I'll just build it in my capital, unless I get the castle quest. If I play izzy I'll build it in all production cities of course.

Isnt it true that castles decrease the rate at which defenses get bombed away?

I seem to have noticed that bombing defenses away from walls and castle cities goes with only a few percents, without those it done in not time.....

They do. The AI builds them often and it's a pain attacking those cities. We still attack and the cities still fall. Digging in is in most cases not a good choice, as you get your land pillaged and evetually might be overcome despite the defences. So basicly instead of turtling with the castle, you are better off building units to counterattack.

There are of course allways situations where it might be different, but those are rather rare ocasions and do not rectify spending hammers on a castle 'just in case'.

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Thinking about it... Those castles are really odd. The Pedia says:

"Obsolets with Rifling except Defensive Bonus"

It basicly should be the Other way around:

The defensive Bonus Obsoletes, the Trade Route stays - because of all those tourists

Refar I beg to differ I build castles for all the reasons people have mentioned, the extra trade route and +25% EPs, but also for defensive purposes in border areas. I use them as part of a strategy which is aggressive strategically but defensive tactically. If you're Protective and have stone a wall and castle which would cost 150 hammers are reduced to 50 hammers and that is just 2 chops or a 2 pop whip. A castle makes a border city incredibly strong and easy to defend.

If I have my border cities protected by castles I often provoke a war with my neighbour allowing them to attack me on my specially prepared home territory. The 100% defensive bonus means the enemy has to attack with a massive stack to overwhelm any defenders. In BtS the AI seems to build large stacks and attack in force but are bad at reducing defences. That means they often throw a lot of troops at good defenders with horrible odds (for them). My damaged defenders heal very quickly in a city and with at least a Medic1 healer, sometimes a Medic3, if I have one. The AI is bad at sending any healers with its attackers and in my cultural zone they only heal 5% per turn so it becomes a battle of attrition with them losing far more hammers than I do. In fact I am often researching normally in this phase of the war as I slowly build up an offensive force.

It is an easy way to wear down their army reserves and gain GG pts with no WW. I train up my attacking troops by finishing off the weakened attackers that retreat, like enemy catapults or HA, at favourable odds. Once they are worn down enough and have picked up a lot of WW you can use the castle city as the springboard for attack and grab several cities in quick succession with little fear of serious counterattack. The AI then make peace on favourable terms and sometimes vassalise. Used this way the castles and walls are an integral part of an aggressive strategy that relies on defensive troops (archers and LB) and counterattacking troops (catapults, HA and shock axes or maces maybe Xbows) to grind down a more powerful opponent. Later these counterattacking troops and defensive troops can be moved forward with my offensive SoD (trebs and CR maces ) to take cities and hold the newly conquered territory.

I think this is a useful strategy for a Protective leader to overcome its neighbours making good use of its trait. I also built forts as local defensive strongpoints and spend a lot on espionage and use a lot of spies to defend and steal technology. After that sort of war I end up with more territory, a well trained army and large investment in EPs that helps me with other Civs by lowering the cost of future missions. A protective civ can make this sort of war much easier than other leaders. I have used Gilgamesh this way on Emperor eventually taking my whole continent.

As i said - there are different situations. And the situation you describe might be a good one - maybe even more with Imperialistic than with protective - to leverage those GG points.

Refar said:

I dont build many castles even if playing a espionage game. Maybe in my Capitol. Most other cities by that time do not have many Esp Points. +25% on Courthouse => 2.5 that is going to be rounded down. It gives you 1 extra Esp if you are running a Spy specialist, but again - you can only run one spy by that time. And by the time you get more Base Espionage to multipy the castes are obsolete.

Pretty much useless overall. Also note that when 'pricing' the castle you have to count the Walls as well. Not that they cost much, still its one more production turn.

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Rounding is global now. So if you have two castles you will get 5 EP. Mind you, I still almost never build them. So many other priorities...

I'm with UncleJJ on this one. Hmm... Maybe I AM UncleJJ!!!

Kidding.

Anyways, his elaborated strategy of offensive defense is exactly the kind of thing I like to do when I get Engineering relatively early. I'll build a Castle on lots of Cities even if I only get either the Protective or the Stone premiums. With both together, it's a really good building.

Of course, the city needs to be reasonably well developed, or a border City to warrant the investment, but those things given, it's a good deal. Halving the bombardment effect is huge - it allows you to kill stacks with much less forces than the enemy brings and the WW hit to them without a hit to you is a huge deal, especially if you have Statue of Zeus.

I only build castles when I'm running for cultural and am out of things to build or I'm isabella.
mostly, those 2 go together .

I play Immortal level and Aggressive AI. Since Im always behind in power during the ME its nice to have some extra protection by building castles in the border cities, pure for the defense bonus. You never know what an insane army the AI suddenly throws at you the next turn.......

Roxlimn said:

I'm with UncleJJ on this one. Hmm... Maybe I AM UncleJJ!!!

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Kidding.

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Anyways, his elaborated strategy of offensive defense is exactly the kind of thing I like to do when I get Engineering relatively early. I'll build a Castle on lots of Cities even if I only get either the Protective or the Stone premiums. With both together, it's a really good building.

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Nice to know I am not the only one who thinks this way.

Of course, the city needs to be reasonably well developed, or a border City to warrant the investment, but those things given, it's a good deal. Halving the bombardment effect is huge - it allows you to kill stacks with much less forces than the enemy brings and the WW hit to them without a hit to you is a huge deal, especially if you have Statue of Zeus.

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Actually in BtS a castle give +25% defence against bombardment ON TOP of the +50% from the wall, so effectively they quarter the rate at which catapults and trebs lower the defences. That means a standard catapult only lowers the defence by 2%, taking catapult 50 turns to lower it to zero. A treb lowers defence by 4% and an accuracy catapult is also 4% per turn. It takes a long time or a big seige train to wear down defences at this time.

DMW said:

Isnt it true that castles decrease the rate at which defenses get bombed away?

I seem to have noticed that bombing defenses away from walls and castle cities goes with only a few percents, without those it done in not time.....

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I think I answered your question above . Castles are very effective at delaying the attack unless a really huge stack of trebuchets is used to lower the defences, it takes 25 trebuchet-turns to zero out a castle. It is this reason why spending on Espionage and using a spy to revolt the city is most useful right at this time (Late Middle Ages / Early Renaissance). That saves a lot of hammers on a siege train.

My view on protective castles.

1) One of the highlights of the protective trait.
2) Building alot of quick castles delays economics, allowing you to beeline other techs. Exception is if you can get economics first for the free GM but muy experience is that if you get liberlaism you lose the economics race.
3) A liberalism free nationalism (switch to nationalism civic) and castles get you +50% in EP very quickly, and big advantage over the AI until jails.
4) Castles are very tough for the AI to reduce before you get reinforcements. Also you usually have a CG III longbows there, so it's unlikely you cannot get sufficient troops to save a city.

madscientist said:

My view on protective castles.

3) A liberalism free nationalism (switch to nationalism civic) and castles get you +50% in EP very quickly, and big advantage over the AI until jails.

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This is so true; but from Nationalism, Constitution is just 4000 odd beakers more ... so go for Jails as well.

I seldom go for The Pyramids, so my SE is just craving for Representation (having expanded and now running enough specialists to make it worthwhile) and the Jails are icing on the cake. Being able to run up to 3 spy specialists in cities with good EP %bonusses and with Representation beakers is dreamy.

So after winning the Liberalism race, and choosing Nationalism as you suggest, I usually have the dilemma of researching either Gunpowder (to draft protective muskets, which aren't at all bad) or Constitution for its goodies. I will research both urgently but which comes first depends on the state of the game. I usually wait and change both civics at the same time... unless I have succeeded in building the Taj Mahal for the two free civic changes (one at beginning and another 8 turns later). There just seems to be so much that is good and synergistic for a SE at that time

Then in the cities with Castles, Jails and Nationhood we have 100% EP bonus and it is worth diverting a large fraction of commerce through the EP slider as well as running spies from food. So while drafting and building / whipping an army able to take on the AIs the build up of EPs allows collection of information on likely targets.

UncleJJ said:

This is so true; but from Nationalism, Constitution is just 4000 odd beakers more ... so go for Jails as well.

I seldom go for The Pyramids, so my SE is just craving for Representation (having expanded and now running enough specialists to make it worthwhile) and the Jails are icing on the cake. Being able to run up to 3 spy specialists in cities with good EP %bonusses and with Representation beakers is dreamy.

So after winning the Liberalism race, and choosing Nationalism as you suggest, I usually have the dilemma of researching either Gunpowder (to draft protective muskets, which aren't at all bad) or Constitution for its goodies. I will research both urgently but which comes first depends on the state of the game. I usually wait and change both civics at the same time... unless I have succeeded in building the Taj Mahal for the two free civic changes (one at beginning and another 8 turns later). There just seems to be so much that is good and synergistic for a SE at that time

Then in the cities with Castles, Jails and Nationhood we have 100% EP bonus and it is worth diverting a large fraction of commerce through the EP slider as well as running spies from food. So while drafting and building / whipping an army able to take on the AIs the build up of EPs allows collection of information on likely targets.

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Nice laid out plan. I have thought of these things individually but never really got the chance to string them all in a row like this. Maybe next Liberalism/nationalism game I'll beeline constitution while building the Taj for just this.

I'll usually build a castle in my great spy settled city (i.e. capital) and that's it.

Castles in spy city, border towns and coastal trade cities. If I am playing a protective civ, I tend to delay economics as I beeline up the gunpowder>rifling side of the tree. The Ai doesn't bring nearly enough Seige units to the party. With the protective trait, I usually have a few CG3drill1 muskets/longbows in each city. And keep 2-3 defensive stacks 0f 4-5 more centrally located near each border to rush in to provide additional support. The delay as they bombard defenses gives the reinforcing stack time to arrive. And also allows me to muster up a nice counterattack stack. in BtS the Ai is not as pillage happy as in previous incarnations.

Maybe castles should be available earlier in the tech tree?