Some ideas

BareJag said:

Just another stupid idea by me



More submarinemodells



There's a weakness in this game having just one type of submarine. In the reality there's three major types of submarines in use.


The disel-electric attack-submarine.
The traditional type. It need to surface from time to time for loading the batteries. It's usualy armed whit basic torpedoes and some SAMs (Surface to Air Missile) as self deffence against aircrafts. It's (rellativley) sheap, and doesen't need nuclear knowledge to be built. These are used against whatewer it finds. merchant shipps, troopcarriers, warshipps, other subs and so on.

The nuclear powered attack submarine
The first one, Nautilus, was launched 1954. It's propulsed by a nuclear reactor, so it doesen't need to surface. Therfore it's able to stay under the water for month's if needed. It's armed whit basic torpedoes, nuclear tactical torpedoes, SAMs, SSMs (Surface to Surface Missiles), used against larger ships on greater distance, and cruise missiles, used against land targets. This is a expensive submarine. But the nuclear reactor gives it high speed, the possibillity to opperate far away from home, and exelent possibillities to hide in the depth as long as needed, far away from the hunting aircrafts. The ractor allso allow it to opperate unther the polar ice. This one's ideal for hunting other subs, to track and sink the strategical submarines, and for sinking major warships such as hangarshipps and battleshipps

The strategic submarine
This one's nuclear powered. This gives it the same capabillities as the nuclear powered attack submarine. It's primary weapon is the nuclear ballistic missiles, whit a range of up to 13.000 km. It allso have torpedoes, both basic and nuclear ones, and SAMs. But these are only used as self-deffence. It's task is to hide, both durring peace an war, and when needed, launch the missiles against enemy cities and production centras. These are extremly expensive, and the owners are hiding them werry well.



I'd be gladd to see all of these in the game some time, but as I said, it's just an idea.

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BareJag said:

Police / millitary police -troops

How about adding some type of "millitary police" whitsh's speciallity's "internal deffence". Ith should be good at deffending cities, and have attack/deffence bonus against barbarians, guerillas and revolting peasants and slaves. Against other unit's it'dd be weak. It won't be good outside the own (or allied) border either. Meanwille, an exelent troop for non-combatant nations. This troop would maby be added in the later game.

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BareJag said:

Poisonous gas

As the stupid history-reader I am, I last weekend got another idea of weapons in the civilization.

The weapon i Think about is poisonous gas. In every "realistic" games, nuclear weapons in a self-evident continuation of the warfare. Seen in a historic perspective, cemical and biological warfare have been even a bigger part of the warfare.

Here's some examples;
The westfront in the first world war, the germans, andl later the other countries too, used phosgene, chlorine, mustard gas and so on. In the beging it was spread by the wind, but later by artillery
In the second world war Hitler hided, but, lucky is, didn't used, the nerve gas sarin, in case of the allied would use gas against them.
Saddam Hussein used mustard gas, sarin and tabun. This time spread by aircraft.
Mostly of the big countries, and bigger warfigthing countries have gas in their arsenal, and have been preppared for using it since the beginning of the last century.

Biological weapons have been used for more than 2500 years, but was not used the same way.


In total realism gas would be used a comparable way as tactical nuclear weapons.
- It casuses high collateral dammage
- The more modern troops are, the better they can mannage the attacks
- The developement of gas will be in the not far from the time of rifleing.
- Attack against a city will decrease the poppulaion, but there'll be a limit how low it can be.
- Spread buy atrillery and aircraft.
- Huge effects on international poppularity
- Cheap

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BareJag said:

Naval mines

I'm quite dissapointed whit the result af a Verry good idea, the Naval mines.
Therfore I've worked out how to make them more realistic.
I hope you don't think this make the game more deffencive. I only wan't to give the game more realism.

The basic idea is that the mines is a type of "special troops" like special persons and spies, but whitout any possibillity to move.
Another way is that naval mines is a type of terrain. This is propably the better one of these two ideas. This is something for the programmer to think about.



There would be two types of minings, easy mining and hard mining.

The easy mining is mining the main waterways and the most propable attackroutes,
while the hard mining is mining every navigable part of the sea.



The easy mining
- Have a small(er) chance of sinking a ship.
- Can be passed by own vessels and ships (because they knows were the mines are)
- There's a small chance that the mines won't detonate. Then the enemy doesn't see them either, and they'll pass unharmed.

The heavy mining
- a easy mining can be upgraded to a heavy mining
- Big chanse of sinking ships, and makes more dammage.
- Can't be passed by own ships.
- Can't be removed, it turns to a easy mining instead, whitch can be removed regulary.

Both types of minings
- Small boats and subbs are more vulnerable and are being more dammaged than bigger ships.
- Can only be seen by minesweepers (if not detonated)
- Causes collateral dammage.
- Can only be removed by mineweepers, and when detonated by ships who runs into them. In those cases, a heavy mining is turned into a easy mining, and ligth minings dissapear.
- Can only be seen by own (and allied) minesweepers, and by ships who have located them (if dammaged).
- Can only be planted by minesweepers and submarines.
- Can't move themselves
- Can only see enemies in their own square (visibillity range 1 or 0)
OR
- Only see enemies who have detonated them, or who are going to remove them.
- a naval mines supply cost is verry low, 0,00 or 0,05 (heavy 0,10) would be a good idea.
- Mines are deffensive and can't attack.
- Mines are -50% effective against sailing ships?


Loading, planting and removing naval mines

- Mines can be loaded in any own and allied town near the sea.
- It takes one turn to load mines on a ship in a harbour.
- Mines are placed from a square next to it
- a minesweeper can carry 8 mines and a submarine can carry 4
- 1 mine = easy mining
- 2 mines (easy + 1) = heavy mining
- Subs loaded whit mines have -50% or -25% combatstrength. What do you like more, 50 or 25? This would be maid using a type of promotion whitch's activated when the mines are loaded.
- placing naval mines takes 3 for easy and 5 (3+5=8) for heavy mines
or is 2 for easy and 3 (2+3=5) for heavy mines a better idea?
- if a submarine tries to plant a mine where a enemy haves one, it will be dammaged as if it would run into it.
- minesweepers see mines 2 sqares away, and thats it's total visibillity range. Ennemies who have not seen them (if not detonated or something like that), of corse not see them at all.
- A minesweeper can remove maval mines, both own and others. It takes 2 turns for easy and 3 (2+3=5) for heavy minings.


Minesweepers
- Minesweepers strength would be 14
- Its attackstrenth against transports is +50%
- It's deffenceskill is +50%
- It's moving range would be 5, equal to transporters.
- It would cost 150 hammers to build.
- A minesweeper would have a 50% or 25% or chance to see an unseen enemy mine when running into it whitout detonating.
- Minesweepers have 50% or 25% less chance that a mine detonate when running into it.


If mines is a kind of unit, then it would be created in any city. It would be transported by a worker. But only subs and minesweepers are able to plant them. A worker can carry 4 mines each. 4 mines would cost 300 hammers. Another way is that mines can move themself on land, but have no deffenceive skills on land. Then it would move as fast as a worker.

If mines are a type of terrain, it would be free, but the loading would take or 3 turns

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There should be at least these;

Disel-electric ww1-ww2 sub (early costal submarine) weak and easy to see whit modern ships (sonar, these boats where werry loudly). Sheap but verry short-ranged (3). Small costal attack-bonus making them ecual to the more expensive modern "early submarine" submarine" on the coast..

Disel-electric ww2 (early submarine) More expensive, longer range (4), stronger, but still rellativley easy to detect whit sonar. Small surface-cappabillity using the for the time commonly used deck-cannon. Short ranged (4).

Disel-electric modern (conventional costal submarine) of the "Walter" and later by the same influencec "Albacore hull design" design until today. Short range, sheap, good hiders, small costal attack-bonus making them ecual to the more expensive modern "conventional submarine" on the coast. Mutch stronger than the "early submarine", allso on the ocean. Range 3 or 4

Disel-electric modern (conventional submarine). Similar to "conventional costal submarine", but marginaly stronger on the ocean, longer range, more expensive, and still a good hider. Range 5

(Nuclear powered attacksubmarines) Huge building cost and maintenance, maby twice the price of a "conventional submarine". Good hiders, in the reality disel-elecric are more silent than nuclear ones when running on the electric engine. Marginaly stronger, especialy in oceans (no costal bonus). But these are still using the same torpedoes as noventional subs, they just have some more strikes. Good range, maby 8, or at least as mutch as the best surface-ships. This is their real strength. These are in the reality capable of making more than 30 knots for long times.

Nuclear powered (Ballistic submarines). Their price are extraordinary high. Serveal times more than any other subs. These are the only seabased units who can carry ballistic longranged nuclear missiles. They are weak attackers by themselves, and thy're spending all their free time hiding.

The tecnology needed for the nuclear powered submarines woud not be required by any other tecnology, giving weaker a chance to spend the research on more vital things. It sould allso be verry expensive, so it would be a big sacrifice to get these.

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BareJag said:

More submarinemodells
There's a weakness in this game having just one type of submarine. In the reality there's three major types of submarines in use.

The disel-electric attack-submarine.
The traditional type. It need to surface from time to time for loading the batteries. It's usualy armed whit basic torpedoes and some SAMs (Surface to Air Missile) as self deffence against aircrafts. It's (rellativley) sheap, and doesen't need nuclear knowledge to be built. These are used against whatewer it finds. merchant shipps, troopcarriers, warshipps, other subs and so on.

The nuclear powered attack submarine
The first one, Nautilus, was launched 1954. It's propulsed by a nuclear reactor, so it doesen't need to surface. Therfore it's able to stay under the water for month's if needed. It's armed whit basic torpedoes, nuclear tactical torpedoes, SAMs, SSMs (Surface to Surface Missiles), used against larger ships on greater distance, and cruise missiles, used against land targets. This is a expensive submarine. But the nuclear reactor gives it high speed, the possibillity to opperate far away from home, and exelent possibillities to hide in the depth as long as needed, far away from the hunting aircrafts. The ractor allso allow it to opperate unther the polar ice. This one's ideal for hunting other subs, to track and sink the strategical submarines, and for sinking major warships such as hangarshipps and battleshipps

Click to expand...

The strategic submarine
This one's nuclear powered. This gives it the same capabillities as the nuclear powered attack submarine. It's primary weapon is the nuclear ballistic missiles, whit a range of up to 13.000 km. It allso have torpedoes, both basic and nuclear ones, and SAMs. But these are only used as self-deffence. It's task is to hide, both durring peace an war, and when needed, launch the missiles against enemy cities and production centras. These are extremly expensive, and the owners are hiding them werry well.

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Slavic Sioux said:

I actually like these ideas myself. It seemed silly how CIV IV never put much detail into subs considering how important they are in history.

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TheDS said:

Naval Mines: Not a bad idea, but I think I can outdo you. Make a Naval Defense building in the city. This "building" would represent improved naval defenses (not unlike what we had in Civ3). Enemies sailing into the city's fat cross would lose all remaining MPs and be unable to unload in that turn, so they would have to unload further up the coast if they wanted to attack. The building would also provide some defense against naval shelling.

ALTERNATELY, make a minefield tile improvement. This could be on land just as easily as water. You need a workboat to build it on water. You could put these anywhere in your cultural borders, and they would take away all MPs for an enemy unit moving into that square, with a chance the ship will get attacked. (The attacks would be similar to how air attacks are now.) On land, a worker could safely move onto the square and perform work to remove the minefield. On the sea, you COULD have a special minesweeper unit, or you could just create some kind of minesweeper promotion. (Most promotions work more as if attached units anyway.)

Of course, the downsids must be considered. If you can't sail Marines up to the enemy city and kick them out, it means paratroopers may have more use. I've seen a couple people here claim they use paratroopers extensively, while I simply can't find places where cities are close enough for them to be effective (and they can't attack the turn they land anyway, but they can still pillage). Land tiles that could be mined could also have a fort built there and a unit or two stationed in them, so you could forgo landmines easily. Mined water tiles, though, would prevent you from fishing those tiles, so it's somewhat self-policing, and the enemy can sail through your crabs if you have any you're trying to exploit. Overall, though, I think it's a better, simpler, easier to understand implementation of the idea.

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searcheagle said:

Civ only has room for so many units. As a result of these, some units have to be grouped together in to the significant units.

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searcheagle said:

Submarines were only significant factor since WWI 1914-present. There are only 11 units in the basic game. I agree more depth can be added to the naval game. (In fact, I wish there was were more units.)

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searcheagle said:

Of the 11 units:
1 is a worker unit
1 is an early unit
4 are industrial or late industrial units.
5 are modern units and.

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Slavic Sioux said:

This I can agree with you greatly. It's seems that they put way to little importance of the navy. The subs though, may have only been here for the last hundred years or so (that's if you exclude the Ben Frank's sub) but they have had so much impact on how last centuries history played out it's quite lame not to include them.

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searcheagle said:

It is more important to add more warships to early part of the game. For 60% of the game, the best odds you can get in a naval attack are 50% (until you start to get promotions).

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TheDS said:

Naval Mines: Not a bad idea, but I think I can outdo you. Make a Naval Defense building in the city. This "building" would represent improved naval defenses (not unlike what we had in Civ3). Enemies sailing into the city's fat cross would lose all remaining MPs and be unable to unload in that turn, so they would have to unload further up the coast if they wanted to attack. The building would also provide some defense against naval shelling.

ALTERNATELY, make a minefield tile improvement. This could be on land just as easily as water. You need a workboat to build it on water. You could put these anywhere in your cultural borders, and they would take away all MPs for an enemy unit moving into that square, with a chance the ship will get attacked. (The attacks would be similar to how air attacks are now.) On land, a worker could safely move onto the square and perform work to remove the minefield. On the sea, you COULD have a special minesweeper unit, or you could just create some kind of minesweeper promotion. (Most promotions work more as if attached units anyway.)

Of course, the downsids must be considered. If you can't sail Marines up to the enemy city and kick them out, it means paratroopers may have more use. I've seen a couple people here claim they use paratroopers extensively, while I simply can't find places where cities are close enough for them to be effective (and they can't attack the turn they land anyway, but they can still pillage). Land tiles that could be mined could also have a fort built there and a unit or two stationed in them, so you could forgo landmines easily. Mined water tiles, though, would prevent you from fishing those tiles, so it's somewhat self-policing, and the enemy can sail through your crabs if you have any you're trying to exploit. Overall, though, I think it's a better, simpler, easier to understand implementation of the idea.

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searcheagle said:

Instead of implementing 1 sub for diesel and 1 for nucl. power, I would rather the tech "Nuclear Power" give all subs +1 movement/

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BareJag said:

Naval mines need te possibillity to be placed by submarines in enemy territory. Hitting vessels in the enemies homewaters is a part of modern warfare, especially against high-valute targets by nuclear subs.
The rest you write sounds good!

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BareJag said:

Police / millitary police -troops

How about adding some type of "millitary police" whitsh's speciallity's "internal deffence". Ith should be good at deffending cities, and have attack/deffence bonus against barbarians, guerillas and revolting peasants and slaves. Against other unit's it'dd be weak. It won't be good outside the own (or allied) border either. Meanwille, an exelent troop for non-combatant nations. This troop would maby be added in the later game.

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TheDS said:

You could look at the submarine as BEING the naval mine. Adding a whole obnoxious mining/minesweeping phase to the game sounds too tedious to me. Just build a good sub, give it some strength promotions, use it to blockade, and that's good enough for me.

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Titus said:

I suggested this too a while back, but as a promotion.

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