Lonely Hearts Club, BTS Edition, Chapter IX: Tokugawa Iyeasu

r_rolo1

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Welcome to the 9th edition of the Lonely Hearts Club for BTS. In the Lonely Hearts Club we explore strategies to cope with one of the most dreaded situations in Civ IV ( possibly the main reason for reloads after the military collapse one :p ): starting in isolation....

For the 9th game in BTS the choosed leader was Tokugawa of the Japanese:
Spoiler :




Oh, the mr " The rest of the world may burn in hell, I just don't care " .... IMHO the more realistical LH of the game ( the only one that does not look like a cartoon picture ) and the more :aargh: AI ( someone described Toku AI as a waste of space... i tend to agree ) : A guy that doesn't trade even the most useless thing.... :wallbash:
But lets talk about Toku traits: Agg + Pro .... This traits together make a high yield war machine if used properly, adding to a superb UU ( IMHO that's the reason why Toku AI is so .... if he traded like mansa, no one would stand in his way after CS + Machinery ). If can mount a good infra , you can conquer the world easily with samurai or with drafted gunpowder units ( the traits give 3 promos to them.... )
Of course that comes with a drawback: the complete lack of economical/scientifical traits... a serious handicap in isolation.

His UU.
Spoiler :

Oh, the samurai.... IMHO one of the 3 best UU of the game ( Preats, Immortals and them ).... A mace with drill I + 2 first strikes ( and with combat I , due to Agg trait ). I lost count of the times I smashed foes with them.... a good stack of them cuts like butter the enemies armies ( due to the FS ) and have quite decent chances even against more advanced units in cites.
In spite of that they look to come too early for a isolated start.... :cry:

His UB.
Spoiler :

IMHO the worst part of Toku package.... a somehow beefed coal plant. In the same way that samurai got a boost in BtS ( with the free Drill I promo ) , the Shale got a downgrade with the power = :yuck: thing in BtS .... and having a extensive use of a unhealth generator in a isolated start is somehow problematic. Besides that it comes a little late....

So, here are the settings( from noble save ). Game is Fractal :
Spoiler :

And the start:
Spoiler :

A food resource ( and a calendar one ), woods ,coastal, a lake... seems pretty decent to me. It has enough food for whipping and drafting, and the woods and the hills can give a decent prod..... and that hill without forests is suspicious, isn't it?

About saves: As usual, pick the level you prefer in the end of the post. Deity save is in the next post.

Again a small request ( not mandatory :p ) :

We ask the participants to do, if possible, a write-up with the victory save and a description of your game ( strategies, techs researched, wars,...). All the info should be in spoiler tags ( to not disturb other people's games ). If you want ( we would like to :p ) post reports at this moments of the game:

Checkpoint 1 - when we have explored the island and are aware of what resources it has. Its not so important when this is, but this is a time to discuss city sites etc. Don't look into a checkpoint 1 spoiler until you have reached this point yourself.

Checkpoint 2 - first contact - when we have met all the other AIs. At this point we can discuss our strategy to get to this point and our plans for dealing with them.

Checkpoint 3 - when we are committed to a victory condition (or at least think we are).

Checkpoint 4 - Victory (or defeat).

As was suggested by InvisibleStalke, I'll let some considerations about the map ,some hints and a evaluaiton of of the game dificulty . Open at your own risk :p
Spoiler :
Star system ( * for very bad and ***** for Excelent )

The map*****
Spoiler :
I loved this map the first time I saw it. Two isolated small continents in the northern hemisphere, with a chain of islands between them only acessible to the human player... ( reminds me vaguely the real Japan ) and a big southern continent. A good amount of small islands with resources will be a nice place for early wars


Our island ***
Spoiler :
The island is not that good but it has all the necessary strategical reources ( some are in adjacent islands ). Some seafood, but :) limited


Neighbours****
Spoiler :
A isolated Fin civ ( with another interesting trait... can't say which is because it would reveal the identity of the LH ) and two other in the big continent ( one of them is particulary agressive... ), with a Org LH as well in there ( with a interesting UU.... again can't say which is ). Space will be hard....


In general****
Spoiler :
I think that is game is set for a complete warpath... the Fin civs will shoot for space and Toku has to use their military for stopping it. I bet that people will have lots of fun with this one



The last words are to wish good luck to all :goodjob: . And let the games begin!

P.S We don't have any kind of problem with defeats and reruns. Just play and enjoy ;)
 

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Deity save below....

Another thing: I'm thinking in a special Xmas edition, but I'm short of good ideas... maybe a all isolated game ( all civs start isolated ) with assorted foes? Post suggestions please ( before that have fun with this one.... and "banzai!!!!" )
 

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Toku, up to the two of us now.

I'll try Monarch and, hopefully, smash the foes with samurais!
:deadhorse:
 
This seems like a fun game, I love Japan so I think I'll have a go with the Immortal save. Deity would be a bit too much for an isolated start, at least for me at the time being ;]

Thanks for making these threads, you pulled me out of my years of lurking this forum to actually posting!
 
Welcome to the posting side of the CFC, Rusten [party] :band: :cheers: I hope that you make a lot of good posts in here ;) and that you enjoy the game ( I think that this one will be particulary fun.... )
 
I'll go again at immortal, but probably will throw some wars unlike the Monty game. Capital looks very high production, but I think its worth it to take a turn exploring first.
 
Reporting in. I will go with monarch.
 
Immortal checkpoint 1

Spoiler :
Pretty darn terrible game for me. I don't quite understand how I did so bad, as I purposely slowed down my expansion and got cottages up and running early on. The land IMO is pretty terrible, with almost no rivers. I ran out of things to build and stayed stagnant for a long time, having gone mining->BW->animal->pottery->towards hereditary rule. I think I would have fared ok had I gone for writing w/ libraries, ran specialists, used the silver, and be able to found a religion. I tend to think that settled specialists would be the way to go (and could have popped philosophy if not snagged confucianism). I might be able to recover, but we'll have to see (I don't think I will).

Anyway, heres my 1 AD screenshot.

View attachment 165423
 
I'm back for more Lonely Hearts! Wow what a challenging setup - Toku gets all the free promotions, but does not seem to be a very dynamic leader to play with.

Here's my Monarch checkpoint

Spoiler :
I agree with previous poster, the land is horrible - the lack of grassland tiles next to rivers is a killer. So there's marble, and that means one thing: grab the Oracle. took Metal Casting with the free tech, to build forges which will increase happiness with that silver resource.

After that, I got the Colossus up in Tokyo and that is probably going to be it for wonders for me until the Great Library. The Colossus I think is going to be key in keeping up research. Now I'm beelining Optics.

Monarchy for Hereditary Rule is a must ...I just don't see any other way to raise the happy caps this early. Pyramids, Great Wall and Stonehenge all fell extremely early for one other civ (Pyramids by turn 84!?!) ... someone has stone in their capital I guess.

I got that chain of islands mapped out but I'm not sure how to settle all this - the iron is all the way on the other side of our mainland, and the distance maintence for all these islands is going to be a killer. I'm thinking of actually moving the palace at some point. At least there is plenty of time to build up slowly before any threats.

 

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@LlamaCat

Spoiler :
YOur post reminded me that the AI's in my game built the wonders pretty quick. I'm not quite sure that I would have been able to get the oracle, or whether it would be worth it. I probably would have had to skip something (like animal) and just to get what, metal casting? Its a good tech but on immortal its better to just start your economy IMO.

As for my game, I've played much later to ~1100s and have recovered a lot. Someone took liberalism, but the main problem with my game is that nobody has found me :(. Its getting a little late for me to be able to trade education, and I had wanted to trade for philosophy and other techs. To win, I think I'll need the AI's to be mediocre all around, so that I can conquer or just catch up. A strong AI might do me in. But its really nice to have a game thats a significant challenge :goodjob:
 
Kinda forgot to make a write-up for the checkpoints (got so carried away) :) - but here are my thoughts so far anyway. Possibly somewhere between checkpoint 2 and 3 (up until 1800 AD).

Spoiler :
Man, this game is friggin' hard. I've played my share of games on Immortal, but this one is the hardest yet. The land is as mentioned above terrible and the AI's make it even harder ;[ I just grabbed Astronomy and the trade routes boomed my economy a lot, but i still think I'm too far behind. My score is 2/3 of the top AI's (3rd to last) which is not horrible, but my tech is lagging behind badly. I can't decide whether to go assault a nearby civ with my samurai's quickly before they're completely outdated or to construct economy buildings i just unlocked (observatory, banks and so on).

The location of the nearby Islands was pretty unlucky too. The maintenance cost was really high, but I decided to settle 2 cities there regardless for the extra trade routes after researching currency. The starting Island is pretty bad too. I have done close to none cottaging due to low-food cities. The ones with fish have no juicy grassland or space and the ones with grassland lacks good food resources.

Basically my current situation isn't that hot, so I think I'm going to have to risk it and assault another LH (you'll know who if you're there yet). Maybe hope for a capitulation and gain techs.
 
I'll try the Emperor save and report back.

Spoiler :
Turn 0: Ugh! No seafood and I got Fishing. Moving the Warrior 1 NW reveals Marble, so I decide to trade the Silk for the Marble and settle Kyoto on the mysterious hill, losing the health bonus for an extra hammer. God so many plains! And trees! And nothing that my worker can initially do without losing turns! I decide to start a boat to explore. I'm definitively going to get Oracle, and those trees and gonna feed it. Since I'm still unclear on what my tech path will be, I'll research mining in the meanwhile, possibly BW next.

Turn 6: First hut brings gold, but next one pops Mysticism. Interesting.

Turn 25: I timed a warrior with pop.3 after the boat. 2 turns left now and I got BW. Need AH so I go Agro first. Most of the starting island revealed. It blows. Looks like food is going to be a problem. Worst of all, little seafood, and it's too spread out. I haven't switched to Slavery yet, but looks like I can't go whip happy either. I spotted a big river in the middle.Seems to me I'll be running CE. I see desert and I see tundra and ice... Oh god.

Turn 39: The Dutch civilization has been destroyed. WTF? But really, I guess it's for the best, at least if it was by barbarians... And not Huayna >_>

Turn 43: I finish Stonehenge in my capital with the help of two hill forests and a mine. Worker/Settler, I got to recover the lost time. Those GPriests are gonna get my capital going. Not planning for CoL, I'm gonna MC-Oracle this time.

Turn 60: Finished exploring. Could be better I guess. This is my dotmap. Like I said, I'm gonna go Oracle-MC-Colossus. So, I'll settle Yellow (Specialists) first, which will work a lot of water tiles, then I'll settle Black to hook up Copper for Colossus. Maybe White next to hook up Silver (mill city) and get :) from Forge, then Green (Cottage city) to get it going. The rest later. I got no experience with so many small islands so far away from capital, but they got good stuff. Added the save. I'll put some priority on Monarchy to HR the hell out of my cities.

Turn 79: Finished Oracle, grabbed MC. Worker/Settler to grab Black. 3 Warriors fogbusting.

Turn 85: GPriest arrives. Settled on Capital. Got Sailing.

Turn 117: I had finished Colossus some turns ago, and had some forests pre-chopped (1 turn of completion) near Kyoto, so what the hell, I decided to take a long shot. I switched to Slavery, and upon 1 turn of completion of the Lighthouse, I whipped it and put all those hammers on GLH. And guess what, I finished it. Hur hur, now I got SH, Oracle, Colossus and GLH. Poor Willem must be rolling on his grave.

Turn 125: 2nd GPriest arrives. Settled again. Gold and hammers, baby. I'm moving White 2 NE with the the discovery of another Fish. Gray will be relocated to work the river later.

Turn 137: I raze a barb city far East. Some gold and a free worker.

Turn 184: First contact. Elizabeth (Fin/Phi) to the West, and very close. I trade her Compass for Monarchy and 20 gold. The trade gave me +4 with her, so it was uneven, but it was that, or Machinery for Monarchy+Alphabet+20 gold, and I don't want her to be building Macemen yet. Switching to HR. I think she's the one who's gonna get it first, but I still dunno how. Researching Civil Service. Need chain irrigation... And Samurais.

Turn 188: Meet Hannibal (Fin/Cha). Ugh, of all the leaders him. I hate his guts, he's so good. He has no contact with Liz, and has total tech lead over me, since I can't trade anything. He has Philosophy, and Civil Service. I think the Liberalism race is lost. I'm gonna have to hard tech to Astro :(

I also meet Suryavarman (Exp/Cre). I hate the green monkey from Mars. I trade him Compass for Calendar and a 15 gold.

Turn 193: The world is round: By Lonely Tokugawa. I meet Asoka (Spi/Org). I decide to trade Optics (and some gold) to Man for Construction and Horseback Riding. I'm gonna go medieval on Liz. Why him and not the Asoka? Hannibal and Man are buddy buddies (shared buddism), Hann and Asoka are worst enemies, I sincerely hope they go to war with him and not me, so I don't wanna piss him off. Liz seems to be isolated. Man is at the top of the charts, with twice my score, and probably twice my land if he's the leader. Yes, that's Man for you, the super expander.

I got a -4 with Asoka, but he's still cautious. Doesn't matter, He's annoyed at Hann and Man. I smell religious war. And keeping Hannibal out of Annoyed is good. PS: They got knights already.

Turn 194: I meet Bismarck (Exp/Ind), and he's annoyed because I traded with the other religious block. He shares Judaism with Asoka. He shares borders with Man and Asoka. I smell Bisteak.

Turn 199: Asoka discovers Liberalism. I knew it. I quit this one. :(
 

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Spoiler :

Turn 39: The Dutch civilization has been destroyed. WTF? But really, I guess it's for the best, at least if it was by barbarians... And not Huayna >_>

:lol:
Sounds like you started off well :goodjob:
 
Here is an unofficial checkpoint 2 for my Monarch game (sorry no pics)

Spoiler :

I've met everyone else and in my game Willem is the second most powerful (he was destroyed in someone else's game...WTF?! that never happens to my games) Anyway the Khmer seem to be dominating along with the Germans. Carthage is a puny 3 cities, and that's good because he is the least easy to get along with in this bunch.

But how to proceed from here? I made some trades that got me a ton of techs .. Optics alone netted me something like 6 techs in one trade. But I'm still really behind and money is tight, and I still have not expanded beyond my main island. Asoka plopped a city on that island chain already.

*** In this isolated setup Toku is like playing a leader with no unique traits.

All these free promotions are useless until I somehow find a way to sail tons of Galleons with Macemen across a large ocean. But I'm many turns away from Astronomy still. Anyway I think there are only 2 ways to approach this:

1. Keep making nice with everyone (except Hannibal) and patiently hope for a UN victory later (would need a lot of luck)

2. Get Astronomy, drop research down to nothing, and launch an invasion at the tip of that big continent at Asoka. If I can get a foothold there, continue the assault through Germany and pray for domination victory. Hope Liz on the other continent stays out of it.

 
Here is an unofficial checkpoint 2 for my Monarch game (sorry no pics)

Spoiler :

I've met everyone else and in my game Willem is the second most powerful (he was destroyed in someone else's game...WTF?! that never happens to my games) Anyway the Khmer seem to be dominating along with the Germans. Carthage is a puny 3 cities, and that's good because he is the least easy to get along with in this bunch.

But how to proceed from here? I made some trades that got me a ton of techs .. Optics alone netted me something like 6 techs in one trade. But I'm still really behind and money is tight, and I still have not expanded beyond my main island. Asoka plopped a city on that island chain already.

*** In this isolated setup Toku is like playing a leader with no unique traits.

All these free promotions are useless until I somehow find a way to sail tons of Galleons with Macemen across a large ocean. But I'm many turns away from Astronomy still. Anyway I think there are only 2 ways to approach this:

1. Keep making nice with everyone (except Hannibal) and patiently hope for a UN victory later (would need a lot of luck)

2. Get Astronomy, drop research down to nothing, and launch an invasion at the tip of that big continent at Asoka. If I can get a foothold there, continue the assault through Germany and pray for domination victory. Hope Liz on the other continent stays out of it.


I think the main strategy to win this by war would be:

Spoiler :
Settle just the VERY important key cities, no matter if you waste land and a couple resources. Then take over Liz continent for yourself. She doesn't have a lot of resources there, BUT she has a lot of river and grassland tiles with villages and towns by the time you invade her. You should be able to militarily dominate her because she won't have much production. Then you could build a Forgotten palace there, possibly move your palace to the center of your island. The thing is, to use this strategy you will most likely have to rollback and replay (I will), because without that knowledge, you probably settled some filler cities already by the time you get her explored and it's likely you won't be able to maintain an economy with all those cities and no economical traits.
 
@Duende29

Spoiler :
I agree - I will replay it too. The land isn't good enough for turtling. I made the mistake to settle too many mediocre cities in my game and got so badly behind in tech that I think I'm just going to give up :blush:

Think I'll step it down another notch to Emperor too, hopefully it will still be challenging. Immortal for this map is extremely difficult. Guess I'll start tonight or maybe postpone it until tomorrow night (exam tomorrow) :sad:
 
Duende29:

Spoiler :
but what would conquering Liz achieve? it is not nearly enough land and population for a domination victory. You still need to attack the main continent to the south at some point, so I am thinking just attack the main continent first and win quicker that way. Unless you are advocating a late-game space victory?

By the way I forgot to mention I have already moved my palace to the city in the middle of my island.

 
Well I missed out on the Monty game, Call of Duty 4 and a resurgent interest in MP civ4 have been taking their toll on my time. And oh yeah I think I had some final exams in there some where. :lol: I will try this one on monarch when I get a chance.
 
It's been really a long time since I played, but I thought I'd pick it up again.

(bought a new PC in last few months and been spending all my time tweaking/overclocking/benchmarking it and seeing how fast civ4 will run with 24x Anti-Alaising etc. :devil:).

Anyways, since I've never played with the Japanese (and haven't played civ4 period in months), and since Agg/Pro really doesn't give much help at all in an isolated start, I'm toning it down and playing on Monarch for this round.

Here's some shots: (warning 1280x1024)
Spoiler :

1920BC:


1AD:
(some cities are small due to whipping)



Capital (1AD)
Managed to build 5 wonders, no pyramids tho :(



 

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@LlamaCat

Spoiler :
Her land, full of matured cottages and grasslands, will pay for itself soon, increasing your research output. You can build up an invasion before hitting Astro, and it would be ok, because you would be using them for :) with HR. That extra research will help you later get the key techs for a more advanced gunpowder army to hit the big continent, easier than tacking them head on and hoping for the best, since they:

1. Are far away.
2. They got tech lead.
3. Except for Hannibal, there are a lot of cities to take.
 
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