Role Play Challenge: The Reincarnation of HOLY SAL!

Welcome to my fifth installment of a Role-Platy Challenge for BTS. Well, let's say 5B as the first attempt at this RPC resulted in a barbarian uprising wiping out the Arabs. The gods have chosen to reincarnate Saladin and give him one more chance to prove his worth. Here we go.

I think these challenges are helpful as they come from and average to good BTS player and on marathon speed. They have each tended to foucus on a certain type of play style that may or may not be "usual" and offer a different angle on the game as well as using certain rules/constraints to make the game more interesting. They have also been one of the few games that are walked through on marathon speed.

All input and suggestions are encouraged, please feel free to comment on any aspect.

The previous 4 games were

The Might Kahn; We got a conquest win using a scorched earth/raze economy/game

Seafaring Victoria: Where we woin a space race victory running an exclusive trade route economy on a water heavy board with no cottage building or running specialists in non-GP farm cities

Chivalrous Washington: Where we attempted to get a diplomatic win while keeping 5 lady AIs happy and protect them from 3 male rouges which ended in a draw (we built the UN but did not get enough votes.

Bismark the Builder: Where the mighty industrious Germans controlled every world wonder at the end of the game. This game used OBSOLETE wonderspam/settled GPs in Berlin and got us a Diplomatic UN win!


The current game is HOLY SAL!!

We will attempt to run a religious economy, while trying to maintain a peaceful and harmoneous world under religious guidance.

Poor Saladin, he is one of those leaders that noone likes and noone respects much. I also have seen that many posters really don't promote religions and shrines much. Bah, I think they are still one of the best ways to run a civilization. Also Sal is protective, probably one of teh most hated traits, but I think it has it's uses, especially for Sal. The protector of the faith. His UB is pretty powerful, and combo of the Egyptian Obelisk and the extra culture of the Incan terrace. The UU offers additonal withdrawal chance and does not require resources. Not a big deal unless you ar emissing horses and/or iron!!!

So the rules of this challenge

1) Sal must try to found as many religions as possible, and must use the Great Prophets for shrines with the exception of bulbing theology. We will try to favor the religion techs as mush as possible.
2) Only Priest specialists may be run.
3) Sal must have a state religion throughout the game. Any civic except Free Religion is in play.
4) Sal is a spiritual man and prefers peaceful coexistence with others. He is also very tolerant of other religions, but not tolerant of Blasphemers who have no state religion. Therefore, he can only open borders and trade with those AIs that have a state religion. If an AI switches to FR, he must close borders.
5) SAL will NOT declare war on any civilization outside his control but can certainly defends his people. Once at war he can attack the AI (we ar enot repeating Washingtons game here).
6) We will make every attempt to build the religious wonders for a true religious economy. AP, Ankot Wat, University of Sankore, Spial Minerat, Sisten Chapel.
7) Any non-prophet GP must be used for GAs.


The map is normal size Big/little, all random
Difficulty is Monarch
Victory Conditions are all enabled however

Sal can only obatin one of three
A) Culture
B) Diplomatic (AP is OK as long as it is not a cheap win, must have at least 75% of the world cities with it)
C) Space. Sal can certainly bring the good word (or words) to other planets, no problem.

Here's the start



Less food for sure but forrests aplenty for chopping.

What are the suggestions here?

Normally I would send the warrior east and move the settler to the tile north of the corn to maximize land tiles. However, that is one turn less to work polytheism and may cost us the religion.

Not a straight foreard one this time.

Hmm...that's a tough choice. I guess it boils down to would we be devastated if we didn't get polytheism? Moving it north of the corn would be a much better spot. If we miss poly, could we make Sal a Jew? Would he really mind?

noto said:

Moving it north of the corn would be a much better spot.

Click to expand...

Why exactly is there a beeter spot ?

We sit on a Plains Hill now - +1 Produciton for the capital (Or is it just Grass ? Blue Marble sometimes makes hard to tell...). That's great. It looks like to the east there are some Coast tiles as well - so moving will reduce the amount of water tiles, but not that much.

Also, moving north might give us Tundra in the BFC. Prefer coast to tundra. We will be able to lighthouse and fishing should be high on the list to make use of crabs.

It looks like a grass hill. Actually, I'm not sure that moving is a good idea since there may well be more coastal resources in that fog to the west.

I"d settle in place, you can't pass up the extra production from a hill top, and your on a river...Levies man.

you gain a coastal square directly south, as has been noted, other sea food maybe in the fog.

Lighthouse, =2 f, 2 C, 0 h, improves crabs by +2, settle in place

looks like a grassland hill, you just lose the forest and gain no production. i'd consider 1 NE if it's fresh water. you gain a hill and a ton of cottage land, assuming 3E isn't desert.

The spot 1 NE is also on the river. The settler is on a grass hill, so no bonus for settling there. I would move the warrior NE as that is onto a hill. I would settle in place.

Oh. Juast grassland... No +1 then Still in place looks not that bad, unless the warrior reveals something new.

Thanks for the suggestions, I'll start it tonight. Some comments and my thinking

1) Settler is currently on a grassland hill. Tile north of corn has access to fresh water.
2) The corn is 3 food, 1 commerce which helps to found the relgion. IN the first attempt we founded hinduism starting with no commerce tile although only one AI started with mysticism besides us.
3) We may or may not get another seafood tile. Only 2 resources so far but LOTS of trees.
4) Moving the warrior is key as I need to see what else is arround. I say 1 tile north, and should answer if it's worth settling above the corn. If there is a second commerce tile, I think we can sacrifice the lost turn.

Assuming we pop no techs and find no additional resources I think the tech order should be polytheism/fishing/hunting/archery/Agriculture. Sal will need some protective VERY early, but wouldwe enough time to bump agriculture up? After the first five techs I am willing to attempt masonry and monotheism.

Build order, I am a fan of worker first but this may be one of those exceptions. We want early pop growth so we can work a second commerce tile to speed polytheism along. Also not much for the worker to do until agriculture, and roads to nowhere are going to get old.

On the other hand we have lot's of forrests for chopping so delaying mining/BW will delay our expansion.

We are faced with the biggest problem of SAL, very slow early growth expansion.

The problem of lack of expansion is mediated by the fact that you don't need to expand far and wide to meet your goals. Cultural victory you only need 9 cities (modified by map/etc.). Diplo/space are helped along by a larger empire, but it isn't necessary.

Normally I would say you could bust out with your UU as well, but if you are playing peacefully then I will just say that at the least you can defend yourself with your UU should you lack for military resources.

futurehermit said:

The problem of lack of expansion is mediated by the fact that you don't need to expand far and wide to meet your goals. Cultural victory you only need 9 cities (modified by map/etc.). Diplo/space are helped along by a larger empire, but it isn't necessary.

Normally I would say you could bust out with your UU as well, but if you are playing peacefully then I will just say that at the least you can defend yourself with your UU should you lack for military resources.

Click to expand...

Pretty close to what I was thinking. The availablilty of resources will determine if we have to beeline guilds or not.

Another option I have considered is trying the Fuedalism slingshot from the oracle. I would need priesthood and monarchy I believe. However, if I get MC that's one step closer to machinery and thus guilds.

The Reincarnation of HOLY SAL!: Part I

As the holy pilgrim Saladin wanders across the lands he decides to settle along the river across from the sacred corn . His people gather arround the newly named citty Mecca, Oh Holy one what shall we do now, we are hungry and tired and need shelter. Saladin looks across the water' "Time for that later, but we must bow our heads in reflection and thank the gods for this magnificent place". The Arabs begin their mass prayer....


So we settle in place. Not much excitement except a deer on tundra (3 food, 1 hammer phooey). We can work the corn for 1 commerce, and once we settle



and find another (and different) seafood, plus silk in the BFC. A second Commerce. We start teching polytheism. In 3610 Buddhism is founded, we also meet our first AI



The pacifist on my southern border. Not too bad there but a competitor in our faith collection. He also DID NOT found Buddhism.

We also got one of those random events with subject tests for extra health.



Normally I will take it this early, but every turn is essential for Saladin at the beginning and I want full use of the population this early.

We meet another AI.



Hmmm... Cyrus was always a pushover and easy to get along with in Vanilla and Warlords. But my experience in BTS is he is agressive, especially late in the game. We shall see.

And Finally



We got our early religion.

Our warrior went exploring and got experience, a scout, a map, and a free tech



OK, we got a priesthood for free and a head start on the oracle.

TEchwise we went: Ploytheism/Fishing/Hunting/Archery/Masonry/Monotheism

First we met two more AIs





Greta, two agressive AIs, and one a nutjob as well as a different religion. Guess we better be heading towards longbows and camel archers sooner than later.

We also are on a penninsule and in rather danger of being cut off



We love our peaceful neighbor, but not that much

Build order for the city went warrior/warrior/warrior/workboat/workboat/worker/archer/settler

and made a pilgrimage to Medina



1 tile off the coast, most of the time a bad moove, but we have the extra food, alot of hills (good production city here), and giving us a chance to make a fair land grab.

we soon after get...



A second religion!!!! And another holy city, this time in Medina.

The larger view of the land



Monty is to the Northwest and Hammarabi is Southwest.

So that is where I saved.

I will convert to Judaism to speed up the cultural border push for Medina. I started on AH but that can be changed.

So where do we go from here?

1) Oracle: DO we commit MEcca to the oracle and stay at 2 cities for a while, or do we make a push and settle along the west coast for a nice riverside city? And what do we take with the oracle? We can manually tech monarchy and slingshot to Fuedalism, but if we lose the oracle it is a waster as we have enough happiness for now. If we tech writing we can take theology with the oracle, founding another religion.
2) Tech order: We need alot at this point. AH can get us food for MEdina as well as production. We also need Mining and BW. Also writing for the Madrassa'a but we sort of need some production to build the things.


Looking for any suggestions.

I'm tempted to say you ought to go for the 'mids soon. You just grabbed stone, and 'mids works great with Sal's priest-based specialist economy. +3 beakers and +1 hammers? That's a sweet specialist; gives you 3 beakers, 2 hammers, 1 gold, and culture with SC. Have one city work on rexing and the other on 'mids-the cash priests give you will help offset expansion a little more than scientists would have, so you can expand a bit more than normally. Admittedly, the two big wonders (Oracle + 'Mids) will set back your REX a bit, but *shrug* that's how things go.

madscientist said:

1 tile off the coast, most of the time a bad moove, but we have the extra food, alot of hills (good production city here), and giving us a chance to make a fair land grab.

Click to expand...

Ok, I'm a noble player and am still learning, so I want to understand your thinking in not placing the city one west. I know I would have blindly put the city on the coast. I would put up with the 2 ocean squares in exchange for the extra 6 food from the coastal and lake tiles once you build a lighthouse. If it's going to be a production city, you gain the ability to crank out navel units. And I think giving up the hill defence bonus would be made up by gaining the hill mine that you would otherwise not be able to work. Then there is all the coast-dependent builings...harbor, lighthouse, customs house, etc.

That said, I know you are a better player than I am based on what I see here, so I think there is something I am missing.

Simple, Access to fresh water while keeping stone in the BFC. I can built 5 farms (need civil service to chain them), and with the cows and seafood this should be a good sized production city. It is also on a hill and since I am committed to a peaceful kingdom with nutty Monty to my west, I expect the city to be assaulted numerous times (or at least it could be). Also it is difficult for Gahndi to slip another city to my east, and impossible for him to put it on the lake.

In retrospect fresh water may not have been a concern as I could have built a harbor to recoup to lost health.

I debated on this quite a bit before settling. What sold me most was the neighbors and the hill defense. May be a moot point is someone settles the west river before me, but there is a very decent chance that this city is my southern fronteir.

The Reincarnation of HOLY SAL!:: Part II

The holy one looks across the blessed ARab realm, "the god's have favored us". As he prays to the Hindu god, and the Jewish god, and the Christian god, and the confuscian god. Saladin shakes his head and mutters under his breathe, "how many more are there". He stands atop the hill in Medina and summons his citizans, "We must have priests here to properly honor our many god's, we must send missionaries to convert our neighbors, we must build a great pyramid to point up to the heavens!" as he turns away he stops and says one more thing, "Oh yes, we must build a new palace for me to reside in and properly guide our blessed people." The crowd cheers!!!

Well a very good round I think, with few problems. Early on I forgot to take few interesting screenshots, you must forgive me (I am noway as good as Sis in this).

First we meet our next neighbor, and boy am I surprised.



Well that is odd, last round I beat her to Hinduisma and MOnty beat her to Buddhism. Plus I was still able to beat her to judaism and, wait we are getting ahead of ourselves.

Build in Mecca went archer/archer/workboat (for medina)/archer/settler (for the river area)/oracle.

Techwise we went AH/Mining/BW/writing/sailing/CoL

First of all, no horses. Second, copper and yes there



In a good spot too. That's a nice coast city over there, we que up another settler in medina.

So I missed the screenshots here, but we built the oracle. I actually had to slow it down a little so we could time it with writing because we founded theology with it. Yes, we founded christianity, in the city of Damscus. REal spread out, we converted to christianity to pop borders, then switched to judaism which appears to be the religion of chpoice for alot of our rivals.

At the advice of Melon head and since we have stone I proceeded to build the pyramids in Medina. Representation with those priests is too much to pass up. Soon after (little chopping required)



We convert to representation and start building temples and madrassas.

We also meet the last AI



The anti-religion communist. Well, at teh save point we has still not converted to anything and thus no open borders.

We make trades and give into some demands





We had also traded Gahndi meditation and montheism for iron working.



And out first Great person was, and Great Engineer. Bah, but not really that bad. We use it for



And after elections



So Monty has at least one city with Judaism. Good, we can try and use that AP to stop future wars from him against us.

Well, I assume war will be on the horizon, bith Isabella and Monty are forming a Buddhist block. Hammarabi, Cyrus, and Gahndi (I traded meditiation for him to convert) are forming a Judaist block. Let's see how that goes.

One more thing, IW showed us



Damned inconventient spot. Well, we need a poor city there and might as well claim as many fur tiles as we can get. THe Iron hammers with build us a lighthouse, then we can go from there.

Also all four of our cities has a wall, an archer, some axes and spears. Decent enough protection.

We also teched CoL (I was sure we would lose this to Isabella, but no) which founded confuscianism, in the same city as the Jewish Holy City. Guess that will be the Wall street city.

Our civics are Representation/Caste system/Organized Religion although OR may change soon.

AT this point I saved, while starting to tech Aesthetics.

The religion status



Gotta beef up the Judaist cities.

Doing decently in tech.

and the 4 cities






So here we are.

Here a resome of my plans/observations

1) We have 2 decent production cities WITHOUT the capital. Mecca looks to be our GP farms, we cna add some cottages. Damascus is a goos commerce city.

2) Tech path Aesthetics/Literature/Drama/Music/Philosophy/Monarchy/Fuedalsim/Paper. I am pretty sure we can get Monarchy from atrade. eventually. We want paper and Philosophy for teh university of Sankore and Ankor Wat, plus Sisten Chapel. Lot's to do.

3) Looks liek we should be able to get Philosophy and Divine Right unless some AI bulbs it.

4) Concerned very much about Buddhist Isabella and Monty breaking the peace. Perhaps we shoudl rpioritize Fuedalism a bit more.

5) No horses means no chariots or HA but we get the UU. We had better get rifling sooner than later. Also, the liberalism race. I am seriously considering taking divine right with it, trade it arround a bit and see what I get, plus it gets us a head start on the Spiral Minerat. Since we have stone and there are no industrious AIs, I see little problem there.

6) We need to figure out how and where to expands. Also need to explore a bit which I am usually very slow on. We will need more cities, eventually 4 more after the iron city.

Looking for any and all suggestions.

ALOT to be doing!!!

Sorry this post is a little late,I was curious about that random event. I can't remember what the benefits were, but they seemed pretty good when I got it. I know it would slow down your growth for a bit, but it seemed like the benfits might have been worth it.

Love your series by the way, really interesting stuff

Thanks for following the series King,

The random event would have given us +2 heralth (or a 90% chance) at the probable cost of -2 unhappy. Most AIs I would accept it and let the capital slow a little, likely the unhappy's would be gone near the limit anyway. Sal is different as we are going down the religous route and he starts off with no food and far away from the early military techs.

Well played so far. Indeed, lots to do. Any chance of generating a GS for phil? I would suggest a different tech off liberalism if you get it first. You could always bulb most of DR with a GP unless you are against bulbing? Angkor Wat I think has the most synergy with Saladin out of everyone as he can run more priests than anyone.

Nice game so far.