Role Play Challenge: Peter Spy Extraordinaire

Welcome to my next RPC game. Previous games can be found in my signature. These games add a certain amount of fun to this forum as well as show different strategies often focusing and a specific strategy/economy.

This game we will play a Diplomacy based game as Peter the Great of Russia utilizing the two main new features of Beyond the Sword, espionage and corporations. WE will use the espionage to help steal techs as well as other mischievious things to help out game, while exploring the full potential of corps and corp espionage (spreading the corps to AIs for excess gold). As usual I will make a distinction between rule (essentially unbreakable except for rare circumstances) and guidelines (how we plan to play but can adjust for the benefit and enjoyment of the game). All are welcomed to to shadow, advice, criticise, comment but please put all spoilers in appropriate spoiler wraps . Finally remember that war is the ultimate (and usually final) diplomatic tool.


Rules:
1) Once we tech alphabet to open up spies, the espionage slider must be at a minimum of 20% the rest of the game (barring economic collapse). We can go higher if we want.
2) We must give diplomacy a chance against any AI, meaning we must try to open borders and direct a minimal amount of EPs towards them.
3) Great Spies can only be used for Scotland yard or be settled. No sending off Great Spies to spy missions against one AI.

Guidelines.

1) We can still tech with the science slider, but minimally. The lower the better.
2) All types of economies are open, CE, SE, TE, HE, whatever the map dicatates. Peter is Philosophical and I see no problems popping GS's for bulbing and subsequent trading. Great people can be used as determined appropriate given the circumstances with the exception of the Great Spy (see above).
3) Tech trading is encouraged at all times although no specific rules.
4) We should try for as many corps as possible, even the ones that contradict each other (Sid's vs Cereal). GMs, GEs, GAs should be saved for the corps however the GSs are easier to get and thus can be used earlier if it helps Peter's cause. Once we get corps they must be spread to other AIs
5) Peter can try and monopolize certain resoruces for a certain corp (we will see wha't possible with the maps). This can be via war if favorable to us.
6) Regarding war, Peter can declare war against anyone he wants if there is a clear diplomatic positive. What we do not want to do is steamroll everyone (like MONTY and Willem) unless that is the only path to victory.
7) Civics: All are in play except State property because of the Corp conflict. We should encourage or force and AI out of SP if possible. Free Market should be the preferred civic and there had better be a very good reason to go to environmentalism (Doubtful as Peter is Expansive) or Mercantilism (doubtful again as we plan a diplo friendly game).
8) All wonders are in play but Great Spy one's such as the Great Wall, Kremlin, and the Pentagon should be encouraged.


Map is a random Big/Little map with large continents
Monarch difficulty
As always, Marathon speed.
All others random.

Victory conditions:

Diplomatic (UN) or space, both equally acceptible
We cannot allow our power graph numbers to be at the top post 1AD, providing we can see a significant number of AI's numbers.
We should keep the science slider as low as possible.
The more corps we found, the better.


Peter starts with hunting and mining, very nice for early military tech although light on food. His UU is nerfed even more in BTS with the delay in cavalry but still very good. I particularly like the late UB (research institute), who cannot like a Great Library in every city post-superconductors with a philosphical leader.

Peter's trait's work excellently together, Philosophical for the generation of GPs and expansive for fast ganeries and extra health for larger cities.

SO our Suave leader



And most importantly, the start



Well, plenty of seafood with gold. Can't complain at all.

How do we start?

I would settle in place first then move scout 1SE to get him started on hut-hunting as fast as possible, moving him 1SW risks him not being able to move 2 tiles next round as there's grassland hills 2W and 1W1SW and it looks like water 1S1SW. If your settler finds a hut after settling though grab it first of course..

Definitly settle in place, that's a great start! The gold is even next to a river, which makes for ridiculous research (or espionage, I suppose) early on.

I vote to settel 1S. We lose the frsh water health bonus but we get a lot more workable land. And Pete (I can call you Pete can't I) is exp so that makes up for the health bonus. Settling in place gives a lot of water tiles. Potentially 6 water tiles with no bonuses if the one hidden is no bueno. I would move the scout 1sw. Yes we lose the potential for a 2 tile move the next turn but it is crucial to see what is in the dark before making a capital settling move. And we gain a lot of production in the 1 south. I am thinking GW. A great wonder to begin with especially with the style we are planning. Getting a Great Snoop early would set the tone quite well.

I think settling in place is fine. Moving south would give more hills, but he's going to want to run a few specialists all game anyway so it would be a bit of a waste. Also, it appears that there is not a lot of land immediately south (judging by the coastline, but it's hard to tell) which makes me think settle in place and stick another city there later. Need to see more map obviously, but I would start moving that scout SE to see if there is anything more appealing beyond the desert. Should be an interesting game.

Settle in place. Food + Gold = GG

Peter Spy Extraordinaire: Part I

The eloquent and charming Peter takes his people to a sliver of land determined to live in peace and prosperity. Little does he know that other,s are arround, most of which have an eye out for Russian lands. Peter loves both his people and his Vodka with equal passion, and looks at where he has come to. "A small but useful river, but do we settle here?"

Peter send his scouts south to find pigs on a hill as well as some nice unforrested hills for quick production, but that puts the Russian capital off the river. "Move south he confidently claims, we need to build fast"



I took Civcorpse's advice rather than the majority on this one. 4 food resources for an expansionist leader is quite a good start, but those extra hills and land while starting with mining is a big edge, and we do not lose any resources. So dejavu, I did the same thing as the Willem game, settled off the starting river. Ah, but Peter is expansive and has other options.

Peter meets another leader, astonished that there are other great leader but covers it up with with his charm, settles for a breif meal, and departs non-enemies if not friends, yet.



So Musa the mad techer. Guess where we start sending our spies!!!

Peter has net this Musa person to the west, but see's land that would be excellent for the Russian people, as well as wonderful source of better Vodka. "We must reach that land first"



Well I certainly think that is a great choke point to block MM off. we need to get a settler off there pretty fast.

The Russian people have learned archery and Animal Husbandry, best to learn defense as you never know with these strangers. Quickly Peter sends a new archer north and find some fine beasts he can use to protect themselves.



Great two sources of horse, both nearby. We'll have out Cossacks later in the game!!!

As the Russian archer explores the northen lands they quickly report back to Their leader that another tribe has been found. Peter great's this new leader, a rather uncouth but somehow strangely charming. Peter immediately drinks all night with the smelly brute, clasping each other as brothers and friends. At least while it benefits each of them, and both leaders know this although neither says it.



Well, well, well. Dejavu again. The agressive and financial leader and the tech mongering miser. I say Russian spies may be pretty darned busy this game.

Peter builds a Settler group of Russians and sends them far away, out of communication with Moscow for the time beeing but preventing Malinese expansion. "Our Russian People need our space."



And we need some protection from these uncouth barbarians Peter mumbles in disgust. Build me a grand Wall to protect us.



The stronge early production of Moscow which results in



The lay of the land so far



For starters I say we settle to the north for the horses, east for the land between Moscow and St Petersburg, and a 5th city to the east. After that we are stuck with off continental settling unless our military feels frisky towards the Malinese.

Our techpath went: Fishing/AH/Arch/Masonry/BW (none)/wheel/agriculture/myst/pottery/sailing.
Nest should be writing and IW although we may want to bump alphabet before IW. Understand once we hit alphabet we are committed to the espionage slider.

Build order in Moscow: worker/WB/WB/WB/archer/arch/arch/arch/arch/settler/arch/GW

So my idea is to get the horse claimed pretty fast to assure our defense. We will have sailing so Galley's should provide some defense from Ragnar.

To be continued......

I note that great lighthouse / colossus would be quite nice with this start. But then again, we probably don't want to build many early wonders, so as to milk the spy GPP for all they're worth.

How do the nearby islands look?


I don't know how well it will work, but you might consider going the middle tech path for monarchy (city growth!) and code of laws (spy specialists! Oh, and others if you want), and only then go for alphabet.

Then again, what are the known AI's tech styles? It would be much better if you could steal those techs.

Nice, interesting play.

I did it differently -- tried to rapidly get my second city up (where you put your second city up) but Mansa stole the spot so I had to settle up north, and make St. Petersburg south of the horses.

Also, is it a plan of yours to always grow the capital to size 5 (well 6 because of the gold in this case) before building settlers? I never build that many archers...in fact I didn't research archery at all in my game, considering it was Monarch difficulty. I made my settler when the capital was at size 3 and still got beaten by Mansa.

DMOC said:

Nice, interesting play.

I did it differently -- tried to rapidly get my second city up (where you put your second city up) but Mansa stole the spot so I had to settle up north, and make St. Petersburg south of the horses.

Also, is it a plan of yours to always grow the capital to size 5 (well 6 because of the gold in this case) before building settlers? I never build that many archers...in fact I didn't research archery at all in my game, considering it was Monarch difficulty. I made my settler when the capital was at size 3 and still got beaten by Mansa.

Click to expand...

Yes, I almost always use that approach. Grow the capital to max happiness size this way we bring all the resources to building the settler which seams to go faster. Put it this way, I able to get a settler and the Great Wall by 1900BC.

Archery is always a priority of mine, usually hunting or directly archery (as the case with Peter) is the second tech third if I attempt an early religion. Archers are fairly sheap and great city defenders and fog busters.

Snaaty has an excellent post on this early strat (actually the strat goes well past initial settling) and really helped my game. here's the link http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=248435

Hm. Here's my suggestion for warding off Ragnar's assaults:
Ragnar will require a heavy production city to efficiently produce Military and Galleys. Thus, build 2 for protection. One should settle an island next to him as a healing base for units. The other should hold Chariots. Galleys on Coast get +10% defensive bonus, giving them 5.5 strength. You'll have a slight advantage. The unit Galley should drop off the Chariots near Nidaros in the event of war, and pillage Mines/Cottages. This will bring down his tech rate (Financial) and his production..

Gooblah said:

Hm. Here's my suggestion for warding off Ragnar's assaults:
Ragnar will require a heavy production city to efficiently produce Military and Galleys. Thus, build 2 for protection. One should settle an island next to him as a healing base for units. The other should hold Chariots. Galleys on Coast get +10% defensive bonus, giving them 5.5 strength. You'll have a slight advantage. The unit Galley should drop off the Chariots near Nidaros in the event of war, and pillage Mines/Cottages. This will bring down his tech rate (Financial) and his production..

Click to expand...

Not a bad idea although I definitely have to map things out first. Good thinking for a defensive approach versus Ragnar.

Am also impressed with your ability to pump out archers and the GW.

Must admit I usually miss archery but might now re-think this strategy.

Peter Spy Extraordinaire: Part II

Well, forget about talking as Peter. We are doing OK but a very unusuale game style for myself. Once we teched alphabet I went gung ho and cut the science slider to 0% and upped the espionage slider as high as it will go. So here we go and then I would like everyone's opinion on how this is going

First diplomatically I know what to do



Yep, convert to MM and Ragnar happy.

Here's a view after settling our first 4 cities, it's all we did this segment



And we get a payoff from our GW



Scottland yard in Moscow, OK so far so good.

The espionage menu, most Eps directed towards MM since I do not know where Ragnar is as of yet. We also teched writing and alphabet then turned research off (we may turn it back on later)




And a random event to help diplomacy with MM.



And we steal a tech off of MM



Then we also stole Monotheism. NOT bad!!!

We meet another AI



And quickly make some trades before he adopts a different religion and hates us.





As you see I am pretty tech generous, especially getting IW which is vital in out cramped location



Horse and iron, OK we are militarily safe through the middle ages at least.


We meet two more AIs, neither too easy to deal with





So far MM is a nice blockade from them. But I will have to address our religion situation sooner than later.

Now things get tempting for old Peter here, a random event



Plus Timbuktu is the shrined holy city (MM did get a Prophet for the shrine).

And we meet another AI



Soon we get enough eps to steal an important tech



And make a trade with Ragnar



Now the thing is MM is getting dogpiled and I do not see him lasting all that long. He's at war with CHuck and Shaka.


Being the opportunistic leader, I think this calls for some appropriate backstabbing on MM. Between the iron, the shrined Holy city, and making points with the AIs at war, I think it's worth considering taking timbuktu and any other cities required to eliminate cultural pressure. Any disagreements?

We make some more AI heavy tech trading





And of course Shaka monotheism when he wanted as tribute.

And the tech situation



I should have taken a screenshot of the world, my bad. But Ragnat is far to the south on some islands while everyone else is accessible via land through MM's western border.

I am spreading eps our and building a settler for one of the nearby islands plus courthouses for maintenance and spy specialists. Trying to cottage up some land especially the capital.

Save is attached fo any who want to see.

But after a very solid start and decent game I feel like a fish out of water on teh espionage game. I am planning to play it out, and try and stick with the tech stealing. I am thinking to leverage most eps towards one AI.

Any recommendation for you ee players out there?

When I played an EE game myself I felt like a fish out of water too in the beginning.

A couple of points:

1st Great Spy should be settled 2nd as Scottland yard as 12 EE points is better than double first.

Use spys for missions that can set back an enemy even if you do not have tech to steal. From destroying improvements to destroying buildings.

Oh also make sure to allow your spies to get at least 30% discount for being stationary

During my game it became clear that the fact you do not tech for yourself limits your flexibility, there is no way around that.

Based upon the situation I think you are forced to take out Timbuktu and to also switch out of Hindu as well quickly until you can switch other civs to Hindu. You can not afford the negatives as when your spys will cause more trouble as well.

I think you should guide your religion based on who you expect to be targeting with your spies.

Spy missions in cities that have your state religion are like 40% cheaper or something. It may not actually be 40%, but it's damn high as far as discounts go, check it out.

-abs

I won't be commenting much I think, seeing as I have no clue how to run an EE, especially since you'll be settling/Scotland Yarding all great spies. I agree with, Halt, I think you probably should have settled the first Spy, but it's not a big deal.

Good luck, looking forward to see how this goes. I think I could learn a lot.

No in a pure EE every single Gspy should be used for Scotland Yards. This is vital if you're going to compete with researching civs bc you don't get any multipliers other than that at all until castles.
For normal games, yes settling the first is MUCH better usually.

Thanks to all for the advice.

I think scotland yard has a bigger advantage because of the slider. we started getting 50 eps right off the bat, mostly from the capital where we have some decent commerce including the gold reserve.

As far as Musa, I definitely think it's time to backstab him, that holy city is essential for our economy. I am looking to spend a good amount of our eps toward taking that city down. I'll play a short round today.

Peter Spy Extraordinaire: Part III

Well, a very short round. Shorter than I intended because I want some advice on how to proceed as somethin unforseen occurred.

The rpeface what we did up to the following events, we simply build cotaages, worked on courthouses, and settled on teh main continent near the wheat (I declined settling off coast as I expected to add some Mali lands).

First of all we see the diplomacy screen and see the problem with friendly relations with Ragnar, he attacked MM even though teh same religion.



Peter being the absolute opportunist, send his stack of swords at MM to capture the Hindu holy city.

However, just as we arrive



Ragnar captured the city first. I see no galleys and the city is manned by a lone horae archer, easy enough to take out with our stack. Also the Malinese Jeene is within shooting distance and is the Jewish holy city (not sure if it is shrined).

So we are stuck with probably the critical decision of the game.

DO we declare war on Ragnar and take the Hindu Holy city from him?

The value is tremendous but we lose our only ally in the game and I really do not know what Ragnar has on the oceans. Home turf is weekly defended and we take a big risk with Viking coastal raids.



EDIT:

Sorry, finally here is a map. Land protects us from the est providing was can hold key cities. Ragnar is on the other side of the world with a sizable jungle filled landmass between us.