Squatting on another civ's spawn area

I was just thinking of how to avoid Cyrus from declaring war on me every time as Asoka. I decided to migrate west all the way to their spawn area and founded my first (and only) city there. Even though I had massive culture (founding both Buddhism and Hinduism and a holy shrine), Shush never flipped to me (it was left with 1 square). Then the Persians appeared and took Shush as their capital. Which brings me to 2 questions:

1. What if I founded another city elsewhere? Would my capital be demanded by the new civ?

2. Is there a rule against me totally blockading a new civ's spawn by founding my capital on their area? Other examples (not the most optimal for the migrating civ but theoretically possible) I can think of include:
China migrating to Khmer or Mongolia
India migrating to Russia, Khmer, Persia or any European territory
Babylon migrating to Russia or any European territory
Rome or Greece migrating to any future European country
Egypt moving to Ethiopia, Carthage or Mali
Ethiopia moving to Mali
Aztecs or Maya founding their capital on Washington
Any early civ going to Turkey

3. If there was a preexisting city for the spawning civ to appear (e.g. Shush), what if I razed it?

I went back and founded Kohalpur one block closer to Shush, and flipped it eventually (disbanded city of course). The Persians appeared north and founded Artacoana anyway.

Tried it as Hammurabi and founded on Athens' spot. Greeks appeared on Crete and founded Knossos.

I suppose no single city has enough culture to blanket a civ's spawn space to prevent them from spawning. (Kohalpur had 3 tiles's worth of culture and I think Persia's spawn space is the smallest besides Athens--I'm not even going to try for the China-Mongolia combo).

civs will always find a place to spawn.
capitals never flip

Other devious ideas I had:
--Start as Vikings, go to England and found on London. Send 2nd settler and found Amsterdam. Since capitals never flip, after Lizzy appears, move palace to Amsterdam (pre-build and whip it if necessary). Netherlands will probably spawn at the northern tip of Denmark but can't flip Amsterdam. There you have two of the greatest financial centers of Europe in Viking hands.
(Can probably do the same for Germany and Russia but time's tight.
--Instead of founding Madrid, might as well found Lisboa (very good place to grow unlike Madrid which is mostly hills) as the Spanish capital. Found Toledo and another city 2 blocks north of Lisboa before Portugal spawns, and they'll be left with Porta Delgada with no production.
--Same thing with Maya: use Tenochtitlan or Tlaxcala as the capital and it will not flip to the Aztecs. Much better production than Tikal. The time to get calendar might be tighter though with the delay.

These are exploits.

Rome flips Mediolanum, so it will become the capital. Sorry, no Rome exploit.

No offense, but I don't think the Viking migration is an exploit. Here are the reason I think one should do it:
1.I did not break any rules (e.g. by opening WB).
2. Vikings have been known to raid England and even Ireland in the Dark Ages (in fact Dublin was originally a Viking town). What if (and RFC is all about what ifs in history) the Vikings settled in Angle-land before the Angles made it their own? Then London is called Thetford (in Norfolk. "Northmen", get it?).
3. England is so much more productive than even Lulea
4. you get to contact France earlier for the trade routes.
5. Plus a jumping point for America.
6. If you prebuild another settler and send it right after England spawns you'll even deny them the iron and crush them in a few decades.
7. People have been complaining about the lack of Scotland in RFC's. Lizzy becomes the Queen of Scots (ironies of history, eh) when she flips Inverness (Inbhir Nis in Scottish Gaelic). Then we'll truly have some war to unify Great Britain under the Vikings!

Oh, BTW, Germany wants Amsterdam (Dorestad or Birka) and so does Netherlands. You need 4 cities to build a palace (costs 6 population so no time to grow even with a harbor), so unless you capture Rome very early (it took me till the 800's to do so) you can't pre-build a palace. If you build walls and enough troops in Dorestad (I think 4-5 longbows should do it), the crossbows and pikemen of Willem have no chance when they attack you. And Willem has no galleys or other settlers, thank God, if I squat on their territory.

I think a better place to send a 2nd squatter would be Porta Delgada. You should have more than enough time until the Portuguese appear (and Porta is grows so quickly that whipping a palace should not be a problem). Mind, you, I think this is good not for the freaking whale and fish, but as a culture blocker so that Portugal and Spain can't send their ship off as quickly as I do to America.

I hate all that that war, I think I'm going to stick to just founding Thetford and sending the other settlers to Kalmar and Umea. Even left Lizzy her cold and unproductive Irish and Scottish territories.

Another reason why Portugal could have easily not existed in history. It was a separate kingdom (just like Leon and Galicia) that just happened to develop its own culture. There was actually a time when the Iberian peninsula was under one king until the Portuguese Restoration War between Portugal and Spain ended the sixty year period of the Iberian Union (1580-1640). So what if Isabella's ancestors decided to conquer the Moors west of modern day Madrid and moved their capital there first? To quote wikipedia:

To unite Iberia was one of the ambitions of medieval monarchs of the Iberian peninsula. Sancho III of Navarre and Alfonso VII of Castile both took the title Imperator Totius Hispaniae, meaning "Emperor of All Spains"[1] centuries before. The union could have been achieved earlier had Miguel da Paz, Prince of Asturias, become king. He died early in his childhood.

A footnote states that:

Notice that, before the emergence of the modern country of Spain (beginning with the union of Castile and Aragon in 1492), the Latin word Hispania, in any of the Iberian Romance languages, either in singular or plural forms (in English: Spain or Spains), was used to refer to the whole of the Iberian Peninsula, and not exclusively, as in modern usage, to the country of Spain, thus excluding Portugal.

Later in that same article it even mentions that Philip I and his successor (the great Philip II) may have wanted to move the capital to Lisbon.

Virdrago said:

Rome flips Mediolanum, so it will become the capital. Sorry, no Rome exploit.

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Well, I was thinking that what if the Myceneans (or Dorians before they were Myceneans) went west and beat the Etruscans to found Rome BEFORE the Romans showed up. Then Pericles can go east and found Athens and another city in Illyria or Thrace to get the copper. Alexander would have 2 of the most productive cities in the western world and European domination would be much more likely. Of course Mediolanum will flip but it's a terrible city (mostly Alps) and I can easily raze it as soon as it appears. (Now Venice is a different matter...it'll cut my Greco-Roman--or is it Greco-Greco--empire in half). I hope it won't appear in the 3000BC start.

I feel like I'm talking to myself, but England could easily get a headstart by moving their capital to Amsterdam (before Germany founds Hamburg). It is historically plausible since Saxons, along with Angles, Jutes, Frisians and possibly Franks invaded Britain and only later did it became England. It will take at most 4 more steps (settler boarding, sailing to Netherlands, unboarding and founding city), which is usually how long it takes to move to Manchester anyway. Of course you'll need to start with the Vikings and raze Inverness first (because otherwise that will be the capital). The only drawback is that you'll have to build 2 more settlers (for the western port city and Dublin). I always felt Inverness was a bad position because if instead of founding Manchester, Inverness was moved one block southeast it would not overlap with London and grow much bigger later. It can even use the oil later in the North Sea.

Another case of successful squatting. Move 1st settler 1 block east of Amsterdam's future location and found Breme on 2nd move as your capital, and let 2nd settler stay put in Paris (but not founding it yet until after Breme). Raze Morgunticum and found either Constance (on the stone) or Metz (one block west of iron) BEFORE Netherlands spawns. Obviously capture Rome ASAP and found Brest on the western tip. Paris can easily be the most cultured city in the world with both Notre Dame and Sistine Chapel built in Rome and 2 great artists sent to Paris.
Since Netherlands will appear southeast of Breme, they cannot move to a spot where they can found a city (since you didn't open borders with them, they can't move unless they declare war on you). Eventually they just collapse and die. By building the wonders I could have finished in 1700 with half the world being my vassals (Khmer, Egypt, Spain, Aztec, Inca, Mali), controlling 25% of world pop and 13% of world territory, or I could have developed this into a domination win (since I could have gotten nukes by 1800).

I know this isn't the exact same thing, but you can steal city spots from other civs just after they emerge as the euro's. Like stick a settler + escort on the st petersburg tile as germany or vikings, send someone over to see when they spawn, wait a couple of turns and then found the city. This way as germany you can control from the Rhine to St Petersburg and Kiev all to yourself!

kairob said:

I know this isn't the exact same thing, but you can steal city spots from other civs just after they emerge as the euro's. Like stick a settler + escort on the st petersburg tile as germany or vikings, send someone over to see when they spawn, wait a couple of turns and then found the city. This way as germany you can control from the Rhine to St Petersburg and Kiev all to yourself!

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That's how I got Rostov and a Black Sea port (as the Russians), instead of having it flip to the Turks. Once I had my Open Borders through Constantinople (my only other seaport was in Siberia, blocked by ice), I built my own Black Sea fleet. My caravels went exploring... and my frigates attacked any enemies foolish enough to enter the Mediterranean!

Strangely enough, one of the few games where
a) the Turks took Istanbul, and
b) I had an OB agreement with them.

Squatting on the romans as the greeks doesn't work, really - not enough time to build up military power before the romans come. Going north and squatting on the german lands seems to work better. Nicer land, too.

AnotherPacifist said:

It will take at most 4 more steps

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If you don't found your capital on turns 1-2, you don't get free workers. Too high price.

Of course you'll need to start with the Vikings and raze Inverness first

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If you start with Viking, you can't switch until England founds London.

Zdarg said:

If you don't found your capital on turns 1-2, you don't get free workers. Too high price.
If you start with Viking, you can't switch until England founds London.

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All true. Unless the Vikings help with giving a "Dutch" city to England even before they found London, and the former will become their capital. But this is way beyond just squatting.
Same thing for migrating from Mayan to Aztec lands for capital--takes too long so lose workers. No good.

I always do this with Greece. Turkey is a pain, espescially with it's UP. SO When Turkey is going to spawn in about 30 turns, I turn to a palace in my nice city. In the end, my empire stays large, and the Tuks go settle in Chernosess. It seems fun, but it also seems like cheating.

Just finished a game as Spain. Lisbon was my capital, but Madrid was built one tile south of the iron. Built a monument and church/monastery so my culture was not threatened by Bordeaux. Lisbon was my money/settler factor while Madrid produced lots of troops (settled 3 great generals there). I had Toledo and the city at the northwestern tip, so when Portugal appeared they had no place to go. (I wondered why they didn't go to Porta Delgada which is in their spawn area). They just sat there and offered to be my vassals. Which is good since their troops sat in one of my cities and provided for happiness (I think?).
I had all of France, Italy and Britain under my control. (Including all of the New World) My expansion stability was a stinking 1 star and Rome actually spawned in 1757, taking 150 from my score.
Did the same thing with America--gave them Victoria, recaptured it (so all beginning units disappear). Then agreed to the fliip and recaptured them the same turn. Just like the Portuguese, America became my "virtual" vassal with only troops but no city or settlers.

Rhye in his infinite wisdom made it possible for the Carthaginians to found Rome by preloading a settler on a galley. (I've always hated how slow Carthage grew and how there is just one tree in northern Africa). You have to spawn with the ships being able to deliver the settler to the future Roma site on the first move, because otherwise you will not get your 2 workers.
In the new version Athens ALWAYS founds another city, and you just have to hope that they didn't research iron working to build spearmen.
Another interesting thing is that Rome does not always flip Melpum. Now they have to conquer it. Maybe Brennus has a chance to develop a separate country after all in Gaul.
I haven't played it out yet, but it sure beats sending that second settler west or close to the dye in Egypt (I can always do those things later)

Well, I kept Rome till the end (1100 AD). What happened is that since I'm not at war with Brennus, and Mediolanum was 100% Carthaginian but never flipped, Brennus kept hitting Emona Julia with axemen and Celtic warriors, and Rome was too busy fighting him rather than capturing Rome. Caesar did declare war on me once, but since I sunk his trireme he took the easy way out and gave me some money. They never even researched Monarchy before Germany took most of their cities away, that's how behind Rome was.

Got all 3 dye by 200 AD, and didn't really have to build another city if only Egypt built a city to enclose the dye (since I have Carthage, Athens, Rome, Sur and Jerusalem).

I was a Jewish theocracy, although I founded Christianity and Islam (gave Arabia a city and recaptured it so they died, and having previously bulbed Divine Right so was more than 3/4 way there).

Having Ethiopia as a vassal is almost essential to maintain happiness, and since they usually lose a city to impis the maintenance was minimal.

Those barb camels were nasty and very numerous. I even saw some barb war elephants in Africa...no wonder Egypt always collapses.

As usual Persia declared war on me, I just defended to start, but the second time I captured Shush.

Built or captured every wonder except Temple of Artemis, Shwedagon Paya, Hanging Gardens, Great Library and Colosseum.

The impact of guilds was minimal, I could have won by 1000 AD but I built the Sistine Chapel and got drama/philosophy/banking to prop my score up (17500).