Republic–How does it work?

D0NIMATRIX

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As some of you may have noticed, the rest of the Civ3 players here and I often disagree totally when we give advice. The reason for this is because I have not joined CFC until about 3 months ago. I have had Civ3 for about 4 or 5 years and have developed a playing style all my own, on my own. Now, since it seems that many pros use republic as their main government, I would like to get a list if things to do to get it function well. I simply cannot for the life of me get it to work better than monarchy, communism, fascism, and even despotism. How do you do it?
 
Make sure that your worked tiles are roaded so you can get the commerce bonus from Republic; disband garrisons that aren't on the borders as they're not useful anymore; also larger cities give more unit support.
 
The key to it is commerce. I'm not a huge fan Dom, its got some really good points and some really bad points. I have to struggle to make it work in a lot of my games.
Commerce, road every tile thats being worked and go through your towns to make sure they are using roaded tiles. Especially work luxuries and gold tiles, to get the commerce up.
There is no MP limit so garrisons are a waste of time. Maybe 1 of the strongest defensive troops you can build in every town, at maximum perhaps 2. Unit support costs are a killer. If you have a border with another Civ then perhaps stock more defenders there and leave some of the core towns empty. As I said garrisons have no effect on happiness.
Build hunting groups. Horses, knights, Cavalry or tanks depending on the age. Station them in reach of coasts and borders where you might get attacked. The more the better, but keep an eye on the unit costs.
Juggle your entertainment slider. Check the cities and if they arent producing commerce and beakers then take citizens off and tuirn them into specialists. As long as the town is still growing that is, after a while it reaches a balance where it can still grow and support tax collectors and scientists. Push entertainment up until your productive towns are not going to disorder on you. Then raise research. If all is going well then you should be getting more actual beakers per turn in research than you would under Monarchy, even though your research % is lower. Thats the bit I had trouble with as nobody really says that bit.
Build marketplaces, it ups the commerce output and provides extra happy faces with luxuries. Temples and Cathedrals are good, possibly Colisseums, and any Wonder that provides happiness. But markets are a priority. Happiness is the biggest downside of Republic, its a total pain not being able to MP.
Doing all that should give you a happy, peaceful, tech researching like mad Civ. You will definitely be researching faster than any gov other than Democracy.
War, I hear you cry, what about that. Be very careful, dont get any troops killed and dont lose any cities to the enemy. Wage short term wars. Aim to get more luxuries, and resources that will give you mobile troops. If you can just take the nearest luxuries and any really rich looking city sites. They are going to be corrupt anyway so might as well produce gp. I like to totally wipe out other Civs but you can only do that if they are small. With long term wars the WW gets out of hand. I have been at the stage where research was 0%, entertainment was way up and a size 17 metro had 3 happy faces, only because everyone else was an entertainer. Starve any cities you take down to 1 citizen, then let them grow. It means at least they will be mostly your people and less likely to whinge about you oppressing their native race.
If it does get that bad then switch to Communism, especially if you are Religious. My size 17 went to WLTKD, or damn near to it.
In a peaceful situation, or one where war only lasts for a few turns, and you win, Republic is great. It researches way faster than Monarchy. If you can trade useless techs for luxuries and gpt its even better. But once your Civ gets over a certain size, and corruption is rife, the AI is going to want a proper war. I found in a few cases that having a huge Civ and losts of WW, research did drop to 0% and cities were effectively not producing, or if they had too many specialists, starving. Switching to Communism meant no WW, I could run cities with growth and specialists, and research at 100% which was faster than Republic. All the while taking more cities of my opponents and waging a lovely war for a conquest win.
Thats the way I play it and it seems to work fine into the Industrial Age, and rail makes it even more productive. If you have fairly small Civ and just defend your border, and in real terms war like a chicken, then its good for Spaceship and Diplomatic wins. As a booster shot to kick you quickly into the Industrial Age its good too. If cities are under size 12 and you have the luxuries and markets etc then WW isnt a big problem, its manageable. If your starting terrain isnt up to it, and you dont have luxuries and horses, and you have hostile neighbours then I dont think it works. For Conquest and Domination, and lots of war Monarchy or Communism are a lot better.
Anyway hope that helps. I'm not one of the players that always opts for it, I have problems getting it to work with my playing style, in a lot of situations.
CivAssist shows the Commerce advantages of switching between goverments, you can play with the entertainment and research sliders and Republic nearly always shows a huge increase in beakers per turn. What CivAssist doesnt seem to take into account is the effect of WW and losing garrison happiness.
 
Its the military unit support.

Your military advisor will tell you what your limit is on troops. If you dont go above that number of troops, then Republic is the best govt. Its better than Democracy because Demo has no troop support at all. So even though you take in more money overall with demo, you give it back in military support.

When I first switch to Republic, I disband all the military police garrisons and build markets. That way your income goes up and your costs drop at the same time.

I like to build cathedrals instead of coliseums because you get an extra content face for the same upkeep.

And you have to fight lots of short wars, instead of a few long ones.

That usually means hitting the weakest civ with overwhelming force, taking three of four cities quickly , then negotiate for peace when war weariness starts to become noticeable.

Repeat with a different civ a little while later.
 
IMO the real key is city placement. Once you learned to settle tightly and get many 7-8 pops towns isntead of some 12 pops, the drawbacks of republic disappear.

No MP? Luxes work better with many towns and republic gives you gpt for buying them (and rushing markets).

Support? You get decent support indeed, and you dont need to support MPs.

WW? With more commerce and less corruption, you should be able to make many trades with many civs => they wont declare war, and when you declare, you can get buy alliances and finish the war quickly.
 
Don't be put off by the fact that your economy seems to nose-dive when you first switch from despotism to republic, especially if you didn't get the slingshot, and have spent a long despotism merrily building workers and military police. The apparent damage to your economy is either totally illusory or quickly rectified; as people have already suggested, you disband a lot of those regular axes that you made while in despo, and you lean on the food to towns into cities wherever possible. If your land is well improved already, you can join workers to towns, which helps both to raise your free unit support level and lower your number of excess units. And don't make the situation worse by building lots of units that you don't then use. By "using" units, I don't mean leaving them piled up in your towns just in case someone decides to attack you. I mean invading other civs and capturing all their towns, and then building more towns in between the ones you captured until you physically can't fit in any more towns.
 
Bear in mind - Republic in Vanilla Civ3 is a very different animal from C3C... so much of what I say here pertains to C3C.
...I simply cannot for the life of me get (Republic) to work better than ...even despotism.
Like many things in this game, you've got to play to the strengths. More on this in a moment, as there are a couple of things you need to understand first.

There are a couple of "illusions" that many players fall prey to when they first look at a Despotism-to-Republic switch.
  • "I can't afford as much Research - I had to take the slider down".
So you had to drop research from 50% to 40%... but that would be 50% v. 40% of...what?!?!? This is over-simplified, but if your empire was bringing in 700gpt in Despotism and you were spending half, that would be 350gpt going to science. If your republic is raking in 1000gpt and you drop the slider to 40%, that's 400 beakers per turn.
  • "It costs too much to keep my citizens happy - I had to raise the luxury slider"
Again... you need to look at the total economy.
  • Unit support costs are killing me.
Make sure you don't have a bunch of useless troops fortified in cities away from the borders. Those keep up to 2 citizens content as MPs in Despotism...troops in the core in a Republic are tactically unnecessary and economically unwise.

So let's see if I can pass along some actionable things you can do to improve your ability to manage a Republic.
  1. Expect a recession right after the switch.
    You may need to adjust your military, and you may not yet have the infrastructure in place to make a Republic work well.​
  2. Learn to "right size" your military.
    Focus on having the most advanced units available, and keep them where they can do some good.​
  3. Learn to specialize your cities.
    Don't build every improvement in every city. Cities that train troops need basic infrastructure (maybe a market and library) while the economic powerhouses might be better off without a barracks, to focus on building every available economic and research improvement. Shield poor coastal "fishing villages" can benefit from having a harbor, aqueduct, market, and maybe a library...but will take forever to complete those if you build a barracks there and try to train troops in those locations.

    In a Succession Game I once sold off the barracks in the capitol city. The Military Academy was there, and we were building Armies. Why spend 1gpt on a barracks?​
  4. Learn to deal with corruption.
    There are some "builder habits" that can be broken here. A marginally productive town can actually become a drain on the economy if it has so many improvements that the maintenance costs exceed the contribution to the empire.​
  5. When deciding build orders for your cities, remember this mantra:
    It's not about what the city needs, it's about what the empire needs.
 
Is there any way to get around long wars? I tend to fight for a long time, especially since I want MAs with civs.

So I want to have 0-1 defenders in the central cities, and the remainder of my army on the border?

What's the slingshot?

I've heard that you want to get a bunch of size 5-6 towns just before republic, and in the anarchy they'll all become cities. Is this wise, or is there another way to get the highest military support right off the bat?

Is religious very wise to have when playing republic games? Any civ suggestions?

Thanks in advance.:D
 
I've never switched to Communism or Fascism, so I can't really speak to them. However, I use Republic pretty consistently, and it's much more "fiddly" than Monarchy. In particular (or at least for me), Republic always suffers some "growing pains," when I first make the switch. I usually make the switch pretty early, so my support costs jump, and I have to move the lux slider up, but it gets me out from under the despo penalty. It's a short-term cost for long-term benefit, IMO.

I agree with Nergal when he says:
The key to it is commerce.
As a cash-rush government with no MPs, Republic boils many major game issues down to gold. Need that barracks right now? Cash-rush it. Need saltpeter? Buy it. Is it just "way too crowded?" Increase lux spending.

The good news is that Republic also provides the commerce bonus. The trick is making good use of the commerce bonus. Because of the way the commerce bonus operates (+1 gold to every tile already producing one), it's important that, well, you've heard it before: roads, roads & roads. By my thinking, you'd want roads pretty much everywhere, for the +1 commerce, movement and for resources that may surface later. Under Republic, though, the commerce bonus adds an additional gold to that road.

In the hinterlands, corruption will eat up all that additional gold, but in the core, all that additional uncorrupted gold gets channeled through markets, libraries, etc., and really begins to make a difference.

In his post above, Nergal makes some very good points with regards to Republic. He also makes a few statements that I don't agree with.

There is no MP limit so garrisons are a waste of time. Maybe 1 of the strongest defensive troops you can build in every town, at maximum perhaps 2. Unit support costs are a killer. If you have a border with another Civ then perhaps stock more defenders there and leave some of the core towns empty. As I said garrisons have no effect on happiness.
This is true. The only thing I would add to it is that when I make the switch to Republic, I usually don't have much that isn't a border town (or frontier town, at the very least), so almost every town still needs at least one defender, at least on my initial jump to Republic. It's not until my civ gets a little better developed that I'm actually able to disband those defenders (or at least keep them moving with the borders).

Juggle your entertainment slider. Check the cities and if they arent producing commerce and beakers then take citizens off and tuirn them into specialists. As long as the town is still growing that is, after a while it reaches a balance where it can still grow and support tax collectors and scientists. Push entertainment up until your productive towns are not going to disorder on you. Then raise research. If all is going well then you should be getting more actual beakers per turn in research than you would under Monarchy, even though your research % is lower. Thats the bit I had trouble with as nobody really says that bit.
I can't quite tell what you're saying here, Nergal. Are you talking about using specialists in the core or out in the hinterlands? If you mean the core, I disagree. A citizen working a tile in a core town with a library will often produce more beakers than a scientist. If you mean out in the specialist farms, that's a different story. In that case, I agree. Specialist farms are a very powerful tool.

Build marketplaces, it ups the commerce output and provides extra happy faces with luxuries. Temples and Cathedrals are good, possibly Colisseums, and any Wonder that provides happiness. But markets are a priority. Happiness is the biggest downside of Republic, its a total pain not being able to MP.
I agree with Nergal on markets, but have to disagree on temples, cathedrals, coloseums and (possibly) Wonders. There's a time and place for a temple, and the happiness buildings are, obviously, fine for culture wins, but if all you're interested in is stomping the snot out of your neighbors, they're not necessary and quite possibly detrimental. One trick in dealing with Republic is keeping your empire lean. Don't build things you don't need. Once you build the temple, you pay upkeep, whether you really need it or not (barring selling it). On the other hand, if you trade for (or capture) a couple of extra luxes, you can probably lower the lux slider. As for Wonders, honestly, I almost never build the happiness wonders, so I can't say that they're most definitely a bad choice, but I seem to get sufficient happiness using cannons and cavalry.

War, I hear you cry, what about that. Be very careful, dont get any troops killed and dont lose any cities to the enemy. Wage short term wars. . . . . With long term wars the WW gets out of hand.
While I wouldn't go so far as to say you can't afford to lose any troops, you do have to be much more careful about it than with a non-WW government.

Long-term & short-term, I suppose, are relative terms. As long as you avoid heavy losses, you can war in Republic for virtually as long as you like, especially if you:
. . . . war like a chicken . . . .

:lol: I'd never thought of it that way, but I can't say that it's totally devoid of some truth! Part of waging war in Republic is managing losses. Sometimes that means not attacking, or making peace until you can get your forces organized.

Anyway, Republic takes some fiddling. No doubt about it. Once you get used to it, though, it's not that bad. Decent unit support (once you've developed somewhat), durable enough for most warmongering, and lots of gold.

Also remember that the (C3C) support structure for Republic is 1/3/4. That means that once a town (up to size 6) hits city status (size 7-13), its support triples. So getting towns to hop that barrier is important.

Edit: X-posted several times over.
 
Is there any way to get around long wars? I tend to fight for a long time, especially since I want MAs with civs.
If you can get your hands on a bunch of luxuries and have relatively small cities, you can keep a war going with 20% luxury rate for an awful long time.

So I want to have 0-1 defenders in the central cities, and the remainder of my army on the border?
Pretty much, as long as your enemies can't get to your core in 1-2 turns and/or you have railroads everywhere; the more advanced you are, the more you can leave undefended.

What's the slingshot?
[/quote]Going straight for Code of Law and then Philosophy so you can get Republic as your free advance, elminating the 40-odd turns needed to research it manually.

I've heard that you want to get a bunch of size 5-6 towns just before republic, and in the anarchy they'll all become cities. Is this wise, or is there another way to get the highest military support right off the bat?
I don't think I've ever heard that, but I don't hang around here too much. Really, it doesn't bother me - granted I play on Warlord still, but once I hit conquest mode I'm routinely double or triple my unit support, and thats usually with 20% luxury and 40% or higher Science.

Is religious very wise to have when playing republic games? Any civ suggestions?/quote]
It's no better or worse than when playing other govt types, I think. If you're going to be switching govts a lot, then yes it's great to have. I don't think it really matters what civ you choose, but a commercial civ will be pretty powerful, due to increased commerce and lower corruption.
 
Is there any way to get around long wars?

Pick a (semi-)concrete goal before declaring. For example, you might want to attack someone and take city X because it has the Pyramids, or silks, or saltpeter. Once you have that city, begin monitoring what the AI will give you for peace. When the terms look acceptable, make peace. While "weaken Civ A" is a semi-concrete goal, I prefer to put it in even more concrete terms, like "weaken Civ A by taking the horses located at X." There may be several cities between me and X, but knowing your goal helps you focus your efforts.

With that said, also remember that because of the commerce bonus means more raw commerce and more spent on happiness at the same slider settings. Get your hands on a few luxes and you can war at 20%-30% luxury spending for a long, long time.

Fight on your terms, not the AI's. If the AI shows up demanding something, go talk to your military advisor to see if you're stronger or weaker than they are. And if they're overseas and won't be able to send enough troops to harm you, let them declare. Don't discount the value of war happiness.

I tend to fight for a long time, especially since I want MAs with civs.
I use MAs all the time. I don't consider 20 turns to be a long war. Also remember that just because you're in an MA and at war does not mean that you have to suffer losses. For that matter, it doesn't really mean that you have to send troop anywhere near the front. This may be "warring like a chicken," but there's been more occasion where I've been declared upon and promptly bought a bunch of friends to gang up on the AI that DOW'd me. Then I sat back and let them slug it out.

So I want to have 0-1 defenders in the central cities, and the remainder of my army on the border?
Situationally dependent. In early republic, everything is on the border for me and all borders get some defense, either internally (e.g. a musket in town) or a group of fast-movers that play zone defense. Once I own, say, 1/2 to 2/3 of my continent, zero defenders in the core, everything else is usually out kicking down someone's door.

What's the slingshot?
In Conquests, whoever is first to Philosophy gets a free tech. So if you finish first in the Alpha>Writing>CoL>Phil, you can take Republic as your free tech. Known as The Republic Slingshot.
 
The specific tips about increasing your efficiency are already mentioned, those tips work for both republic AND monarchy, by the way. Even in monarchy there is no reason to build barracks in every town, for example. So I'll talk a bit about the deeper reasons why I chose republic.

Its going to be an overall/bug picture story:

The game is about expansion, about increasing your power, and about opening up more options for yourself.
The sliders are a percentage, a percentage of an absolute amount. The best way to get more power is to increase that absolute amount, because if that is big enough, you'll have more freedom on how to set the sliders, because more absolute amounts of stuff means more of everything.

The importance of expansion is such that at the very start of the game, I'd gladly set the LUX slider to 60% if that is what it takes to keep my settler factories going. Because what I lose in absolute amounts is very small, but growing fast enough gains me huge amounts more in the future.

The future is what it is about, the future is the reason I switch to republic as fast as possible.
The first reason is that I want to switch away from despotism, of course there may be reason to stay in despotism a bit longer in some situations, but in general I want to do this as early as possible, this removes the tile penalty, allowing me to grow faster, and opening up more options (irrigating grass now becomes a real option, if I so want to)
Removing the tile penalty is such important to me, that I don't mind as much if I have to decrease science, the increased power in growth, means that I will more than make up for that in the future.

After food the next most important thing for growth is shields, shields build units and units conquer. The lower amount of waste in republic help with this, but there is more.
Even if I would use monarchy, I would still not put my units inside cities. Because units inside cities don't help me expand, they don't help increase my power, and they don't help increase my options. So even if I use monarchy, I'm better of, for the sake of the future, to but those shields and turns used to build those units to growth!
This basically means that one of the advantages of monarchy (MP) is not really helping much at all.

And then, after food and shields, comes payoff time: commerce. At a certain point, when I've advanced enough, and gained enough lux resources, republic will be more powerful in commerce than monarchy. I've arrived at this point seamlessly, I don't need to switch governments again, and I will pull ahead of monarchy faster and faster, while monarchy starts lagging behind. The only hope monarchy has is to switch a second time, but the damage is already done. Not to mention that switching a second time will also delay progress, again.

I'll give a real world analogy:
Companies are outsourcing and automating, lots of people lose their jobs, what to do: keep the market free and open? or protectionism and government regulation? In a time period like the one I'm describing, the lure of protection is big, but what would the situation be 20 years later?
20 years later, the people who lost their jobs mostly found new ones eventually, and while not everyone is lucky, usually better paid. The products they can buy are cheaper because they are produced more efficiently. More luxuries and services are available that can by bought.
And the nations that went with protectionism are 20 years behind!

I'm not saying RL economics can be compared and used in Civ3, (the fact that the republic gov in Civ3 is labeled "republic" instead of "communism" is irrelevant, they could have been labeled the other way around just the same) but I'm trying to explain that what is important is what republic will do for the future. Even if that means it seems to put you back at first.
As long as you keep investing in the future, and what you are investing in has a good return of investment you are not really losing commerce, only investing it. It will come back.
 
Basicly i will choose republic if i am in a game where i wont have to do much war or only blitzkriegs, ill take it over monarchy and avoid another revolution later, with republic i use a system of limited backup units spread around the empire and not a standing army like i would with monarchy. If i exspect long wars i go monarchy and then communism.
 
It took me awhile to get a hang of Republic. My main problem was that I had way too many troops sitting around doing nothing. As soon as I get into Republic I send all of those regular warriors from my core to the outskirts and disband them.
 
As far as defenders goes, I was talking about when the civ is more developed, When everything is a border then it needs defending. Thats simple tactical intelligence.
I was talking about towns in the hinterlands, thats why I said if they arent producing beakers and shields. I find towns like that are at a distance from the capital, and may have huge growth but no production or output because of corruption and waste. I'm getting a lot better at managing that aspect of my realms. To be honest mostly by playing Republic, it effectively forces you to micromanage more.
I suppose I do need to break the building habit. Someone made a really valid comment about the town paying for itself, in terms of maintenance, and I guess garrison. I need to watch out for that. I do find the happiness Wonders useful, especially if they are cheap to build or easy to conquer.
Anyway i'm attaching a save of my communist Empire ... so feel free to play with it.
 

Attachments

Thanks for the clarifications, Nergal. Seems that I completely overlooked part of your statement:
. . . . I was talking about towns in the hinterlands, thats why I said if they arent producing beakers and shields. I find towns like that are at a distance from the capital, and may have huge growth but no production or output because of corruption and waste. . . . .
Sorry about overlooking that part. For specialist farms with great huge growth potential, consider using those to build workers or settlers. If they're really growing fast, you can cash-rush settlers out of them. It's a good way to keep a supply of settlers on hand.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by D0MINATRIX
What's the slingshot?

In Conquests, whoever is first to Philosophy gets a free tech. So if you finish first in the Alpha>Writing>CoL>Phil, you can take Republic as your free tech. Known as The Republic Slingshot.
__________________

That's the low-level slingshot. When you increase difficulty, it becomes impossible to research CoL before Phil and be the first to get Phil.

Here is the slingshot:
Research Alpha>Writing>Phil and when the advisor tells you got Philo, ask for the 'big picture', dont close the window, go to the diplomacy screen and get Col by trading. Then still dont close thr window, return to science screen and select republic.:) It works because AIs usually reasearch CoL first.

The slingshot trick also can work for scientific civs entering a new era: eg if you manage to trade for feudalism, engeneering and monotheism, you get invention:) , chivalry:D or theology:( as free tech.
 
Is religious very wise to have when playing republic games? Any civ suggestions?
Well, in republic game you revolt only once, and if you get republic early enough it will be 4-5 turns anarchy.
Also half-priced temples/caths arent very useful: with your commerce bonus you want markets and when you have markets, trading for some luxes will be enough to keep your citizens happy.
However there are 2 case when the religious trait is useful:
-When you dont want to revolt too early because you launched a big war (e.g. Egypt with dozens of war chariots)
-When you want to secure a ressource, rushing a 30-shields temple is a good idea. That works well with the Arabs: the scouts explore quickly, then a settler go for the ressource and the temple prevent the AI from settling too close.
 
I'm new to the game (couple of months) and have only just graduated to Regent, but I tend to stick in republic. I usually beeline for republic as soon as I have ironworking, and ignore monarchy completely. I do, however, find that lengthy wars are crippling, with only my core producing anything if the war goes on too long. That didn't used to bother me, as I generally played for tech, money and the space race and avoided getting into wars (mainly because my war tactics are for . .. .. .. .), but now I'm learning to war better, and enjoying the domination and conquest side of the game, I'm feeling I may do better not going with republic. So should I be going despot-monarchy-communism? If I war, then I've usually got quite a large empire by the time I research communism, so could well be worth going that route. Does mean 2 revolutions though, although I suppose thats not too bad in 6000-odd years.
 
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