The Scientific Biofuel Debate.

Abaddon

Abaddon

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A few points I think we can agree upon:

1. Humans are using resources faster than they are being replenished.
2. The resources we currently rely upon will not sustain us indefinitly.
3. We must find an alternative or we must change our habits.
4. Only if we do both will humans continue to prosper
5. As the scientific draft of the forum, let us discuss the alternatives.
Click to expand...


While we must see the pros and cons of various fuels, let us assume that we move the discussion away from the current fake market (via grants) in bioethanol within the US. Foodcrops are NOT a viable source for fuel.



Having researched various biofuels, and while there are several with potential, I would like to propose Biodiesel as the most suitable. This is taken from the main sectors of Bioethanol, Biodiesel and BioGas.
 
It's inevitable that plants will be more efficient at capturing sunlight than we will be able to achieve artificially for a long time. The drawback is that using plants for fuel means more land has to be converted to grow these plants, which could be counter-productive.

Governments really need to get involved more. If I could afford it, I would happily buy a "biocar" (I'm coining that word for my future use :p). The main drawback for me is that nowhere sells biofuel. Paradoxically, nowhere is going to sell biofuel unless people have biocars. Governments need to step in and force petrol stations to give people the option of selling these fuels, or the whole thing will not take off.
 
It would be a big and sudden jump.

Similar to the analogue/digitial switch?
 
Abaddon said:
It would be a big and sudden jump.

Similar to the analogue/digitial switch?
Click to expand...

I wouldn't compare it to the analog/digital switch.

What will have to happen is to design a car that runs on both the current regular fuels and biofuels. With rising oil prices and proper production of biofuels hopefully gas stations would start offering it's consumers the cheaper version (biofuels). Slowly they will take over the market.
 
Free market solves everything? Soaring petrol prices make it viable?
 
It is not a given that plants are more efficient than an artificial product in the near future and while plants are limited to the earth, us humans can put solar panels in space.

On the other hand, perhaps we can use this energy to make fuels.
 
Any artificial product needs energy to create it in the first place.. how many years does it take for a solar pannel to recover the costs of manufacture?

A plant obtains it energy much easier.

But I don't forsee one ultimate solution, rather multi-many solutions used together.


The evolution of the home is one major step, making each an everyone more self sustained.

Its not that hard to be self sufficent in elec and water with current technologys, just give us time :)
 
There have been breakthroughs in solar panels within the last year that allow for much much cheaper solar panels, with easier deployment ( I think there was one company that made solar panels that could be just painted on basically ). As such, the energy to produce biofuels and to process them will soon be nearly free
 
Nope. I disagree with four. There's no need to define "prosper" as "maintaining our current habits". In fact, my opinion is that we can only "continue to prosper" by changing our habits.

We're so caught up in "alternative fuel". It's like a band-aid for cancer.
 
LucyDuke said:
Nope. I disagree with four. There's no need to define "prosper" as "maintaining our current habits". In fact, my opinion is that we can only "continue to prosper" by changing our habits.

We're so caught up in "alternative fuel". It's like a band-aid for cancer.
Click to expand...

Think you have misread me... i did say change...
 
There are plenty of Hydrocarbons on this planet to sustain us at our rate for a minimum of 200 years.

Coal
Oil
Methane, (pigy poop)
methane, gas hydrates(http://marine.usgs.gov/fact-sheets/gas-hydrates/title.html

The worldwide amounts of carbon bound in gas hydrates is conservatively estimated to total twice the amount of carbon to be found in all known fossil fuels on Earth.
Click to expand...
 
Biogas is pretty poor for use on an industrial level.. we don't really have the systems designed.

An as for the resources on the planet.. how many are economically viable to obtain.. or environmentally viable?
 
Biofuels are essential to end carbon emissions in cars.

However, I believe that it would be easier for people to swallow using electric cars. I mean, the first cars were electric but were abandoned due to the fact fossil fuels produced more energy. Electric technology has improved much since those times.
 
Diesel came first and was killed off along with electric due to the petrol companies.

We are already seeing hybrids, so I suspect you may be right.


Buring Biofuels to generate lekky?
 
stickciv said:
Any particular reason as to why?
Click to expand...

come on, think
you need more soil if you want to produce fuel from plants
end result => devastation of forests or ecological dissaster, rise of food prices or social problems, rise of goverment subventions in biofuel productions or economical problems


Abaddon said:
Diesel came first and was killed off along with electric due to the petrol companies.

We are already seeing hybrids, so I suspect you may be right.


Buring Biofuels to generate lekky?
Click to expand...

irony is a b.i.t.c.h,
and hybrids are the biggest polluters among cars
 
knez said:
come on, think
you need more soil if you want to produce fuel from plants
end result => devastation of forests or ecological dissaster, rise of food prices or social problems, rise of goverment subventions in biofuel productions or economical problems
Click to expand...


[wiki]Jatropha[/wiki]

Helps stop desertification, can be grown in poor soils, not used for agriculture
 
Currently biofuels seem to be doing far more damage than good - deforestation to grow biofuel crops is already occurring, and doing ecological damage that spreads well beyond carbon emissions. Switching over existing farmland to biofuels has obvious undesirable effects on food production.

Even if you could switch to some less destructive option (can you ferment algae?) it seems very much the wrong direction. If you're that determined to cut net carbon emissions then you'd be better off going for an electric car, and charge it from nuclear (supplemented by renewable) power stations. Has certain practical problems in the time required to recharge the batteries. Hydrogen is the other obvious route, though again we don't really have a practical storage system.

As for burning biofuels to generate electricity - that's seriously back to front. Biofuel is only worth considering at all because it's easy to store and transport (like oil). If you're just burning biomass in a power station, you may as well burn any old plant matter without fermenting it and extracting a fluid.
 
Ferment yeast, bioreactor algaes.

Yeasts so potential.. there is lots of development in their heat tolerances and pH resistance for the creation of ethanol.

Algal farming stuggles to implement. While in theory it gives the best (by zillions) production Vs space, it fails elsewhere.

As yet there are only a few company experimenting with it (I remeber some New Zeeland company playing with sewage effluent) and not on an economically viable scale.

The problem is creating a continous (rather than batch) process.

Algae clogs, needs sophisticated systems to grow well etc
 
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