expansion into economy

My games allways seems to work much better when i focus almost exlusivly on production in the early game. After a recent game as mayas i am starting to wondering when is the right point to start building your economy and how you go about it. In this game i had an oasis but other than that i didn't have anything giving me commerce other than some riverside titles and some traderoutes the first 3000 years or so. Obviously Monarchy then CS allow your economy to explode. Since my capital was pretty nicely positioned with loads of rivertitles, irrigated corn as well as cows and oasis it could grow to size 18 around the time i got into the AD's(two peaks in the fat cross, so oasis corn cows and 15 cottages) with food to spare, converting all the mines i had used in the early game to expand into cottages. Letting me get liberalism first at 475 AD(a hair before the nearest competitor, using 1 GS for academy in capital and one for Education). Of course this was a highlands map so there was plenty of room to expand peacefully, but even so there was a period my expansion pretty much stopped to start getting my economy up and running...

Obviously none plays perfect which is what lead me to start this thread. About what time do people aim to hit techs like monarchy? CS? Liberalism? Assuming you got room to expand either peacefully or through war when do you start focusing on economy? With cottages? What about if you get your research from specialists instead? How does traits affect this? Obviously there is no perfect answer to this generalization and it obviously depends on who you are playing against as well as map type(difficulty and type of opponents). The point is there is probably a point where you want to start teching if you want to keep up in tech(i assume it is not possible to win with exploits like quecha's and praets due to facing actual humans or just not using them if facing AI). What affect this and how? And how would you go about it?

I think it depends a lot on difficulty. I play on Monarch and it is very hard to trade/extort techs like math/calendar/metal casting/compass in a timely manner, which makes directly bulbing liberalism difficult. Since trading for math in a timely manner is difficult, bulbing phil and getting to CS can be delayed. I usually end up teching most of the tech tree myself.

Playing monarch/normal I usually try and gun for CS @ 200AD and just get monarchy when I can trade for it, unless I have a capital highly-suited for cottage spamming, especially with a financial leader, in which case I will go for monarchy much earlier in the BC era (first tech beelined after necessary worker techs are in). Liberalism I usually don't rush to because on monarch/normal the AI won't get it before 1100AD and can still be around at 1400AD. So, I'll just get it when I get it. If I have expanded hard and have cottage-spammed I might take it earlier for taj + free music GA for a double golden age to further my tech lead. If I'm going SE and want rifles I may delay until I can take rifling as my free tech, usually around 1100AD.

Well if you can always get all free things whenever you please you aren't really playing at a challenging difficulty are you? I ment in a situation where you face near equal opposition or such(say mp or just a level where your skill is outweighted by the AI bonuses(if BTS deity is not enough warlords deity had way more bonuses...)). Delaying CS to the AD's seems rather late unless you don't have a commerce focused capital at all and affording to delay liberalism is rather uncommon to me... The question is rather how fast can i get it and still expand max or rather how much expansion would lead to me getting it fastest possible? 4 cities? 6? 8? 10?

I'm a big fan of the 1:1 ratio city specialization - one commerce city per every one production city. Pottery is usually one of my first techs, so my commerce cities are starting to grow CE style fairly early. Production cities on the other hand are focused toward production, of course. So to answer your question, I don't know that I have a real consious switch from production to commerce... I try to focus on both at the same time depending of the purpose of the city.

Yes, getting pottery early and building a couple of cottages very early has paid big dividends for my games...

Well of course you have production cities and commerce cities. The capital is often a production city in the early game(as the more production you have the faster you get out settlers and workers obviously). However due to bureaucracy it is often smart to get loads of commerce there as there is nothing as powerful as bureaucracy at that stage of the game for research(especially with an academy). Hence it will often be beneficial for the capital to convert. Obviously you can chose the order you build production/commerce/specialists cities. This will also determine how the weights are on production and commerce(or research) at different stages in the game. In the early game production is arguably worth alot more than commerce(go grab that land while it is still there), but at the same time you don't want to lose liberalism or some such. Hence there will often be something which can be called a conversion while it is actually a priority shift.

Well of course you have production cities and commerce cities. The capital is often a production city in the early game(as the more production you have the faster you get out settlers and workers obviously). However due to bureaucracy it is often smart to get loads of commerce there as there is nothing as powerful as bureaucracy at that stage of the game for research(especially with an academy). Hence it will often be beneficial for the capital to convert. Obviously you can chose the order you build production/commerce/specialists cities. This will also determine how the weights are on production and commerce(or research) at different stages in the game. In the early game production is arguably worth alot more than commerce(go grab that land while it is still there), but at the same time you don't want to lose liberalism or some such. Hence there will often be something which can be called a conversion while it is actually a priority shift.

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I consider my capital to be a hybrid - maybe that's what you're saying, but I like it that my capital can do both at any time. My capital doesn't go through a predefined 'conversion' - it's typically on good land, and it's been around long enough that it can usually just do anything. The 1:1 ratio holds up for me for the course of the game... though I am more of a warmonger, having lots of late game production cities helps me to raise armies very quickly. It also depends on the land, but I don't typically convert cities from one type to another at a certain stage of the game. There is no priority shift unless there's an emergency and I need my commerce cities to start building military (rare)... even running low on money generally isn't an issue because I can easily run an SE hybrid economy to supplement my research in my commerce cities - something I often do in the early game anyway.

Plus, I wouldn't call REXing a product of early game production - since settlers and workers are built with food too, a future commerce city or GP farm can be just as effective (if not more effective) at early game expansion. Production is mostly about military.

My capital will start off as a hybrid - after all it must be doing both, but as more cities are built, I shift it towards a commerce city or production city, depending its terrain and resources.

The worst thing about a heavy production capital is that bureaucracy become les attractive. bureaucracy is just to expensive if the capital have no monney. I tend to wait for free speatch or just shift the capital.

dragomaster said:

The worst thing about a heavy production capital is that bureaucracy become les attractive. bureaucracy is just to expensive if the capital have no monney. I tend to wait for free speatch or just shift the capital.

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Most of the times, sites of my starting city tend to be better suited for commerce anyway. Only after I explore the surrounding area, I can select sites for future production cities.
Besides, I thought I remember Bureaucracy also giving you a hammer production bonus too...

Additionally, I always allow for some commerce even the most production-oriented city just to help offset some maintenance costs.

lolwut, people are disparaging hammer heavy bureaucracy capitals?

I like using most/all of my outlying cities as commerce cities, but maximizing my big bad capital's production output, myself. 1-2 turn build times on my macemen, or sub-10 turn build times on wonders, are worth a high upkeep civic. The other cities can be the economic legs that carry that.

As for early teching... improve resources around my second/third cities as pottery gets researched, then start cottaging them/running a couple scientists once I have writing and libraries. The capital doesn't get any of that though.

Im not convinced liberalism is all that important in the big picture. With late techs costing in the thousands, im of the opinion that landgrab and production early game and then a switch to beaker focus mid to late game is overall a more solid strategy than aiming for any particular "firsts" along the way. About the only exception i can think of is any wonder that gives a big tech bonus, which is part of the reason my capital is always a wonder city.

Thats from a spaceship perspective, of course. Not a big fan of civ warfare.

Getting liberalism first has saved me many times. I can focus on scientific advances, using liberalism to grab a military advance the process. I prefer cultural/economic dominance myself, but unfortunately my opponents love warfare, preferring to launch sneak attacks with massive armies, so I have to be prepared...

oyzar said:

Well if you can always get all free things whenever you please you aren't really playing at a challenging difficulty are you? I ment in a situation where you face near equal opposition or such(say mp or just a level where your skill is outweighted by the AI bonuses(if BTS deity is not enough warlords deity had way more bonuses...)). Delaying CS to the AD's seems rather late unless you don't have a commerce focused capital at all and affording to delay liberalism is rather uncommon to me... The question is rather how fast can i get it and still expand max or rather how much expansion would lead to me getting it fastest possible? 4 cities? 6? 8? 10?

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Like I said, it depends on difficulty. I play late at night, and I like playing games where I feel like I am winning most of the time (it is a game after all), so I play on monarch. On monarch, you don't get a lot of tech-trade opportunities so it can be hard to get CS sub-1AD on NORMAL speed (although it is possible, but depends on capital terrain). Also, if there is no rush on liberalism then you can just get a better tech for it. If there is a rush, then you take what you can get. On monarch/normal the big hurdle is clearing CS then you could bulb paper, edX2. Then you have to decide if you'd rather tech MC/calendar/compass yourself to bulb lib or just tech lib outright. Either way it is possible to get lib ca. 600AD or earlier if you're a really good player and have good terrain. It just depends on things, but I was just trying to give heuristic rules of thumb based on the 100s of starts I've played out on monarch/normal. On average, I find I hit CS at 200AD when I gun for it and liberalism depends on what I am doing, it is usually there for the taking. Such is life on monarch difficulty, at least for me.

oyzar, you seem that you learned something from our games,
mackoti

oyzar said:

Well of course you have production cities and commerce cities. The capital is often a production city in the early game(as the more production you have the faster you get out settlers and workers obviously). However due to bureaucracy it is often smart to get loads of commerce there as there is nothing as powerful as bureaucracy at that stage of the game for research(especially with an academy). Hence it will often be beneficial for the capital to convert.

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More often than not I switch my capital city around. Unless of course the initial start is just perfect for a commerce city. But usually I can find better, and prep it like any other city. Then while Civil Service is coming down the pipe (or sooner) I'll build the palace. Additionally, The initial city location is very rarely the center of my empire. Not that it's a huge deal, but it is always a plus when I make the switch that the new capital is in a more central location.

It just always made more sense to me to build the palace in a new location rather than shift the focus of the original one, If it didn't start as a commerce city. Or if it's more suitable as something else (most capital locations for me make better GP farms or production cities).

dragomaster said:

The worst thing about a heavy production capital is that bureaucracy become les attractive. bureaucracy is just to expensive if the capital have no monney. I tend to wait for free speatch or just shift the capital.

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As long as the capital is powerful in either commerce or production, it's probably worth it (although vassalage doesn't hurt if you're really churning out units).

Sometimes, capitals just SCREAM production specialization. A good example would be the one I had a few games back, that had 2 seafood, 4 hills (one with iron), and was far and away my best production site. Screw economy. I can worry about that later after all those hammers lead to me holding 2 AI capitals or so.

futurehermit said:

Like I said, it depends on difficulty. I play late at night, and I like playing games where I feel like I am winning most of the time (it is a game after all), so I play on monarch. On monarch, you don't get a lot of tech-trade opportunities so it can be hard to get CS sub-1AD on NORMAL speed (although it is possible, but depends on capital terrain). Also, if there is no rush on liberalism then you can just get a better tech for it. If there is a rush, then you take what you can get. On monarch/normal the big hurdle is clearing CS then you could bulb paper, edX2. Then you have to decide if you'd rather tech MC/calendar/compass yourself to bulb lib or just tech lib outright. Either way it is possible to get lib ca. 600AD or earlier if you're a really good player and have good terrain. It just depends on things, but I was just trying to give heuristic rules of thumb based on the 100s of starts I've played out on monarch/normal. On average, I find I hit CS at 200AD when I gun for it and liberalism depends on what I am doing, it is usually there for the taking. Such is life on monarch difficulty, at least for me.

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You tech so much faster than me it isn't funny. Lib is usually a 1000-1400 AD endeavor for me (though I do win it about 50% of the time, it's rarely a priority due to the way I play. If I'm getting near it and I see any hope for it, I'll try). I've had some peaceful wins in this game but usually my fingers start twitching if I'm not knocking heads...WHOOPS DOW BACKSTAB. I haven't won peacefully since my first Prince win (culture). I don't count those self, vassal(s), and 1 other civ "diplomacy" wins as peaceful, though. I suppose if I really wanted I could launch the ship in games like that, happily murdering anyone who tries to do it first...but that's too much effort.

I've followed a lot of your games though, and it seems like I'm just way too aggressive to keep up with any sort of intelligently planned peaceful teching. I did note that in my most recent monarch game, one of the periods between wars I was teching things lightning fast (industrialism was like 6 turns and I was just behind one other AI to it...an AI that I had no intention of fighting on another continent). My slider was at 50% I think but the massive #'s of cities (I think 20ish?) probably helped my cause (can't remember if I bumped the slider up to finish that tech quickly or not).

As far as the OP's ? goes...as long as you can afford them, the more cities the better. My priority techs are:

1. Worker Techs
2. Bronze Working
3. Math/construction/currency/CoL/monarchy
4. Attack or keep expanding if nothing to attack.

The presence of happy resources dictates when I look to monarchy, so that can vary wildly. Same goes for construction...if I don't see an early war target, catapults can wait a bit. I'm a couple hundred years behind futurehermit once the CS and Lib type techs roll around. I also play monarch...this is the best I can do. Hope it helps somewhat.