Strategy differences from Vanilla to BTS?

Got through 5 pages of posts and hadn't seen this obvious post yet.

I'm more asking the question, but obviously there's a few things that need to be discussed seriously:

1. Apostolic Palace (Map size = a big factor, I usually play on medium or larger)
2. Espionage, and how important it is (I typically play with tech trading off, can you still steal techs?)
3. Combat, and how I can't take cities with a dozen catapults anymore. I used this in vanilla, I never played Warlords. I like it though, it's more realistic. God...I used to use catapult stacks basically until I was going up against riflemen.

And there's always the other stuff, like what Civs are good for what, what traits are best, etc...

gamemaster3000 said:

Got through 5 pages of posts and hadn't seen this obvious post yet.

I'm more asking the question, but obviously there's a few things that need to be discussed seriously:

1. Apostolic Palace (Map size = a big factor, I usually play on medium or larger)
2. Espionage, and how important it is (I typically play with tech trading off, can you still steal techs?)
3. Combat, and how I can't take cities with a dozen catapults anymore. I used this in vanilla, I never played Warlords. I like it though, it's more realistic. God...I used to use catapult stacks basically until I was going up against riflemen.

And there's always the other stuff, like what Civs are good for what, what traits are best, etc...

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2) Yes. Stealing techs is a great early strategy.
3) You still need cats/trebs to soften up a city and a mixed stack of spearmen/pikemen, axeman/swordsmen/macemen, and horsemen.

I think it's easier (and you get more fun out of the game) if you just start playing and get some familiarity, then come back & search on one or two things you have specific questions how it works, try to pick things little by little as you keep playing.

Also, I'm sorry, let's call a spade a spade: The suggestion that AP, espionage, and changes to siege warfare have not been "discussed seriously" in this forum is bizarre. They have been (to death, dozens and dozens and dozens of threads each). I know because I've searched on each myself along the way. USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION PLEASE!

I dont think he meant they havent been discussed before, I think he meant HE needs to discuss them himself heading in to BTS.

My best advice is to read some of the "play/follow along" games. Many strong players offer great insight to whats good, whats not good, how strats vary, etc etc.

One thing for sure I will say, Barbs are MUCH less of a problem in BTS than in Vanilla. Between the Great Wall and the lower activity, its much easier to focus more on the task at hand than stress over barbs from trn 10-50. My vanilla games seemed to ALWAYS get de-railed by barbs. Now, I barely pay attention to them, other than watching for the "spawn events". Of course, I am a GW instead of Stonehenge guy.

Also, look for good synergy with the new Buildings and Units and such. Not only does each civ get a UB, but there are a bunch of new regular units and buildings that deserve strong consideration in many strats. Many of the new civs have great combo-plays. Look for them in the walkthrough's/play-alongs.

I am really really enjoying BTS so much more than Vanilla its not funny. And I was surprised by that, despite being told it numerous times on these boards. I really liked Vanilla, LOL. I give Vanilla a 9.5 as it is, but BTS is a solid 9.999, and thats only because no game is a perfect 10.

Imo, the main difference is not about the AP, espionnage, or combat. For me, these are all features.

I think the main difference is the AI. I used to think, before playing BTS and reading debates about it, that I would surely keep warlords around to play with the old AI if I wanted too. And although I feel the current AI has indeed some problems that I feared, I think I would never go back to the old one, except perhaps for a change here and there.

Basically, it seems to me the new AI play more solidly. It doesn't expand as quick as before, it doesn't tech as fast (the old handicaps gave it this power), but it's much much more intelligent imho. It techs better (not faster), it doesn't expand as fast but is harder to take over military, it's better at fighting... Overall, it's more solid.

To sum up, I felt that Vanilla and Warlords strategies were a little bit too much about exploiting tha AI's handicaps. I don't feel anymore it's the case, and that is good

I tend to pay a lot more attention to unique buildings in BTS compared to Vanilla... Mainly because they exist.

As someone who recently made the switch from Warlords to BTS (I played Prince level on Warlords, always as a warmonger) here are my thoughts after about 8 half games of BTS.

1. The New (Group) AI - The AI is not so different for one civ, however as a group they are much harder to crack (use of the dreaded AP Palace comes to mind). Where's the mod to get rid of that thing! Blah!
I have yet to find an answer to all the alliances that result from the AP.

2. Spying - I find this to be mostly bad news. Why? You only get so many "free" spy points and then it costs you research. I'm usually warring and don't have money to divert from research into spy points so the AP alliance pulls missions on my cities. Blah!

3. Lerning curve is high - There seems to be so much more going on, you have to be a much better player to go up in level. I'm playing on Warlord level now just trying to absorb all the changes and come up with ways to beat the coalition.

I have learned a lot about civ from playing BTS but I have not been able to master it.

To me the AP determines the direction if the game. It has become to significant a building to be ignored in one way or another.

To prevent a cheesy diplomatic loss, if I don't build AP, then I have to do one of two things:

A. If I have the AP religion, then I have to spead it as fast as I possibly can to as many of my cities as I can. You really can't do anything else.

B. If I don't have the AP religion, then I have to switch to Theocracy civic as fast as possible to keep from losing.

C. The third option is only available if the AP is close enough and you have the troop strengh to do it, which is to take it out. Almost always I am taking option A or B anyway, while pursuing C.

I still remember losing diplomatically to the AP palace, when I was about 2 turns from starting a war with the owner and I had the forces to take it quickly - losing was kind of not very realistic as had it been the real world, I would have just ignored the AP's pronouncement while going on to conquer the world. "Sure your in charge".

I obviously take pains to avoid that outcome now, disproptionate to any other possibility. The usual solution is to build AP palace as soon as possible, which then allows for me to have a cheesy victory, by missionary spread. Just religion my folks and then 1 each missionary to the other civs (preferably their smallest city ). Doesn't gauruntee a win, because occasionally I get a stubborn civ, but usually doesn't take much effort.

I could of course turn OFF diplomacy, but what if I want it later.

AP needs to be fixed (rant over )

Longwatcher said:

C. The third option is only available if the AP is close enough and you have the troop strengh to do it, which is to take it out. Almost always I am taking option A or B anyway, while pursuing C.

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I have this EXACT situation in a current game. I have dragged the game much farther than needed because I need "practice" at certain techniques, late-game stuff especially (first thing I notice when I go up in levels is the games go longer, into unfamiliar territory for me with regard to techs, warfare, diplomacy, etc).

However, I just took a city with the AP religion, and I am spamming missionaries as fast as I can, but I wont be able to get there, I can tell. So I am building an invasion force to take out the city completely, its only a short island hop away, and I can DoW and drop a nice stack same-turn, once I have the ships, that is. Then, I can send the ships back quickly to pick up another load and drop it on his other bigger cities right away as well. If I dont, I am going to lose, I can tell, heh.

Hey Longwatcher I like how you think.

How do you figure out who has the Palace and what city it's in?? Does the head of the religion usually have it?? And then what, use spies or open borders to find the Palace??

Anyway I think my next strat is to take your option 3 and rush build the AP. Why aren't there any strat guides on "AP slingshot"???

I think you can look at where wonders are located in the graphs section, can't you? That would tell you where the AP was... (if I remember right, it's in the demographics section, or nearby...)