PA's make the game too easy?

What do others think about this? On the one hand, in my two emperor games the AI seems to shack-up quicker, which gives them an initial tech advantage, but I find that by the time I find a friend (maybe 100 turns later with even a smaller, backwards one) to ally with, I start teching like a beast. And I can use him as cannon fodder to harrass the other AI's while I plan my surgical strikes. And simply having his size and armies makes the other AI afraid to attack me so I can stuff my cities with buildings instead of worrying about armies.

I notice that at this higher level, I really don't need much in the way of armies. I can use the small amount I have so much more efficiently that it's really rather pathetic to watch the AI miss their opportunities with their giant land armadas.

Gosh, I'd be afraid if I were playing against my self in command of the AI armies, but the AI just doesn't know how to use their armies.

What have been other peoples experiences with PA's? And, has anyone ever seen more than two PA's in a game? In my current game, their's two competing alliances and the rest of the world is becoming vassalized to one side or the other--either willingly or through conquest.

What is a PA?

Yushal said:

What is a PA?

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"Permanent alliance".

Anyway, I used to use them all the time, but I stopped as of yesterday. I saw Mansa Musa and Hammurabi get one (odd because I had never before seen the AI do that), which cost me the game because I couldn't keep up with their tech rate. Then I realized that every time I got them - which, over my playing history, was a lot - that they usually sealed my victory in every instance, so I turned them off. So yes, I do think they make things a little too easy.

I haven't gotten into a PA yet - how do they affect victory conditions, if at all?

Can your "permanent ally" still beat you by, let's say, completing the space race or cultural victory first?

No, if your permanent ally gets a culture victory, you get a culture victory. Or he can get 1 legendary city and you get 2 legendary cities and you win, etc. You're a team, and if either of you wins, you both win.

But yeah, I agree that they make the game too easy. Getting a PA is pretty much an insta-win in 1500 or whenever you get communism.

I always use the PA option in custom games, but never partake in an the alliances myself. Enemy PAs make for interesting games.

Seems like there should be a significant point hit at the end, then, since you're basically sharing the victory. Is that how it works out?

Its seem they never wanna have a PA with me ,..

Maybe the can feel that I dislike communism in real-life ?

You need to either have shared a war with them or had a defensive pact for a long time. I've never had this be a problem as soon as i get communism. Just pick your PA target early. As soon as they get in a war, be sure to join in. Or bribe them to fight alongside you in one if they don't start one or they don't get picked on. Beeline military tradition early too.

And Alexander is special in that he's the only leader who it's completely impossible to PA with, so be sure not to pick him.

I did it once with Darius. We were both quite powerful, and after signing PA nobody even thought to touch us Thank to PA I got the access to oil,
and Darius even gave me one city.

Have them on to aid the AI
Usually I and another AI will be the superpowers and then the others can semi catch up without becoming anyone's vassals by forming a union (permanent alliance) together.

Monkeyfinger said:

And Alexander is special in that he's the only leader who it's completely impossible to PA with, so be sure not to pick him.

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Not the only one. There are a few others; I think they include Napoleon and Tokugawa.

King Jason said:

I always use the PA option in custom games, but never partake in an the alliances myself. Enemy PAs make for interesting games.

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I take a similar approach (though not always; more like 1 in 3 games).

I find it works best when you've got lots of civs on the map - at least 50% more than the default - and Aggressive AI turned on.

The first half of the game is one massive slugfest, with civs getting vassalised and conquered all over the place. Then, in the latter half, the world is divided into competing power blocks, composed of Masters and Vassals, and/or Permanent Alliance partners.

It's perfect for game-long warmongering, helping to avoid the all-too-frequent trudge to an easy victory you get after making heavy conquests in the earlier stages.

And, of course, if you should wind up in an impossibly weak position moving into the late-game, then your have the option of seeking a partner for yourself (it's rare, but I've gone that way once or twice).

There are some decent limits, it is impossible to get a PA if either partner is the power leader... so it mostly becomes a way to save a game... if you are already really far ahead by Communism/Facism then they are mostly a potential obstacle. (from the AI forming them)

magicalsushi said:

Not the only one. There are a few others; I think they include Napoleon and Tokugawa.

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I've had PA with Toku. Mercantilism rocks for that

Wacky said:

Its seem they never wanna have a PA with me ,..

Maybe the can feel that I dislike communism in real-life ?

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I agree but State Property/Police State is sooooo much fun in the game.

Or maybe nobody likes me because I smell like grilled cheese all the time and have small hands.

I can never tell...

Krikkitone said:

There are some decent limits, it is impossible to get a PA if either partner is the power leader... so it mostly becomes a way to save a game... if you are already really far ahead by Communism/Facism then they are mostly a potential obstacle. (from the AI forming them)

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I'm often the least powerful, but then I don't need large armies to win. In both games it was the AI that allied first, and then by virtue of the alliance became the most powerful; thereby obliging me to find an ally to counter their growing hegemony.

It does make for interesting wars.

Paying OCC with PA is fun if you go for something like a domination victory.

My armies clear out the land while my ally ... FAILS TO SEND IN SETTLERS ... so I clear out the land again... and raze some more cities... and wait...

Oh such fun