ALC Game #22 Pre-Game Show: Playing as Saladin

My new home computer has been shipped and is on its way, so it's time to start planning for the next game!

In the next ALC game, I'll be playing as Saladin, leader of the Arabs. The purpose of this thread is to discuss, before the game, how to best exploit that particular leader's characteristics, which is the main feature and purpose of the ALC series. Just so we're clear, I'm playing with the Beyond the Sword expansion pack with its most recent official patch (3.13) and with Bhruic's unofficial patches as well. Here's the fact sheet:

• Traits: Protective (Archery and Gunpowder units receive Drill I and City Garrison I automatically, Double production speed of Walls and Castles) and Spiritual (No anarchy from civics changes, double production speed of Temples.).
• Starting Techs: Mysticism and The Wheel
• Unique Unit: Camel Archer (Replaces Knight; Strength: 10, Movement: 2, Cost: 90; Unique Characteristics: +15% chance of withdrawing from combat, does not require horses or iron to be built)
• Unique Building: Madrassa (Replaces Library; Cost: 90; Unique Characteristics: Can turn two citizens into Priests, +2 culture)

I'll be playing with Choose Religions on, just for flavour. I'm undecided regarding the map--I was thinking fractal just to make it unpredictable and play-what-I-get, but I'd like to hear your thoughts. The game speed will be Epic, as usual, and this will probably be the last ALC game played at the Emperor difficulty level.

Saladin is often cited as one of the weakest leaders. In fact, that's why many of you suggested that I change the ALC game order to use him as my leader to bow out of Emperor level; winning at this level with Sally would prove, in a way, my mastery of it.

Why is Saladin often cited as weak? I suspect it's a combination of the Protective trait and his UU. It's pretty much a consensus among Civ IV players that Protective is the weakest of the leader traits. I've always argued it was put in to make the AI tougher to conquer, as its benefits to the human player are not as great. Nevertheless, you have to play the hand that's dealt to you. As we saw in the Tokugawa game, Protective Archers can fend off early barb incursions quite handily, so I may make Archery an early tech priority. It's too bad Saladin doesn't start with Hunting to give him a leg up on researching that tech, but he doesn't have an advantage going after Bronze Working, either. You could argue that starting with the Wheel argues in favour of using Chariots for early defense, but like BW and Archery, for Saladin that also requires researching two techs (Agriculture and Animal Husbandry). Protective also means that the archery and gunpowder techs and units become priorities later in the game (Feudalism for Longbowmen, Gunpowder, Rifling, and Assembly Line for Musketeers, Riflemen, and Infantry). A source of stone would be nice for many reasons, not just to further accelerate the cheap walls and castles (read on).

As for the unique unit, Camel Archers remind me of Hannibal's Numidian Cavalry, which have their fans; the main feature of both is a boosted withdrawal chance--like starting with a free Flanking II promotion, or close to it. In some ways CAs better than NCs because they keep the full strength rating of their counterpart, the Knight. However, the chief advantage of the Numidian Cavalry is that they come along around the same time as Catapults and can be used as substitutes for or supplements to those units, attacking and causing damage, then retreating (you hope) to live and fight another day. CAs come along much later, when both Catapults and Trebuchets should already be on the scene. Still, it seems to me that the way to use them is the same as the way you make heavy use of the Numidian Cavalry and many other early mounted UUs: give them Flanking promotions to further leverage their survival chances and use them to inflict damage. With the new potential for flanking damage to siege weaponry, CAs could be especially effective against a stack of enemy Cats and/or Trebs.

So that's my take on Saladin's "weaknesses". Now let's deal with his other characteristics, which are more substantial.

Spiritual is a very strong trait, allowing Saladin to avoid anarchy for civics changes. Which means, to take advantage of it, I'll want to both prioritize techs that enable beneficial civics and to switch to them (and between them) as required. A Spiritual leader is perfect for leveraging one of may favourite tactics, queue-building units and then switching civics to produce them with additional XPs. This is something I usually do in the medieval era when I have access to the Vassalage and Theocracy civics, as well as a plethora of units that benefit from the additional XPs (including, in Saladin's case, his UU). So assuming the opportunity presents itself, I'll be anticipating a queue build and civics switch followed by warmongering in the medieval era of this game.

Speaking of Spiritual, we should touch on religion. Saladin starts with Mysticism; should I attempt to found a religion? Then should I prioritize Priesthood to get access to those cheap temples? Having a religion early would mean I don't have to worry about monuments, which confer no real advantages on Saladin. And yes, as "Choose Religions" is on, if I win an early religion of course I'd choose Islam. Allahu Akhbar!

If I have marble available, I could consider a run at the Oracle. If I have stone, I'd like to go after the religious wonders (Spiral Minaret, U. of Sankore) that boost those cheap temples (and other state religion buildings) even further. I'd be willing to go to war to gain a source of stone, in fact. Should I play Saladin similar to Isabella and try to build the Apostolic Palace too? I haven't made a charge at that wonder since the Isabella game.

Finally, the unique building. The Madrassa is kind of a combination of Egypt's UB and the Library. I usually run scientists once I build libraries, but the Madrassa gives me the option of running priests. If we decide to found and spread a religion and pursue the AP, Great Prophets could be helpful--as I recall, they can help research Theology to give us a leg up on building the AP. Someone want to remind me how that's done? Another thing I've started doing with early GPs is settling them in the capital. The early gold and hammer boost is small, but significant if you get it early enough.

So I look forward to hearing you take these disparate ideas and formulate them into a plan for the game!

A try on the AP would be interesting with Salalin ( as with the Egyptians.... sometimes it looks like the wonder was costum made for them due to their UB ). And the 3.13 change in AP/UN wins makes the thing far less cheesy ( unless you have a vassal )

As I stated in the Bullpen, a map that I have grown very fond of is hemispheres,varied continents with islands. The layout is usually pretty random and fractal like. It does not sound from the description to be all that different from a standard hemis game, but it is. I think the "varied" option adds all the spice. With islands also selected the maps have been great and varied from semi isolation to a massive continent with five civs packed in. True isolation is pretty rare. I suggest when you get your computer you should generate a few maps and check them out.

Since you're spiritual, I'd say shoot for the Pyramids as well if you have stone.
And build those temples to keep happiness up for warmongering or growth. It might be a deviation from your usual tech path, but worth going for. Maybe trade for it later on if you feel you aren't going to need temples right away.

Anyways, looking forward to the game!

The Bard said:

My Saladin days
When I was green in judgment
cold in blood

Click to expand...

Is it worth mentioning that Camels require neither Iron nor Horse? No, alrighty then.

Actually, I take that back, I'm going to mention it anyway. I wouldn't necessarily call this a synergy, but Saladin does have a lot of parts that all sort of add together....

1) He's got a resourceless unique unit
2) He's got buffed archers/gunpowder units, which are also resourceless (at least for a while).
3) His starting techs don't offer you much of a jump start in expanding anyway
4) The library offers extra priest slots.
5) Spiritual means running up the religious branch anyway (unless you want to turn left for the S'Paya)

It looks to me like a lot of pieces that fit fairly well with an Obsolete uber-Capital approach, with a specialist economy running on the fringes.

The madrassa also gets +2 additional for a very nice base of +4. If you have a border with a troublesome AI a madrassa can be a big help with culture wars. Due to the 1000-year-culture-doubling-rule, a madrassa built in the BC's will quickly generate +8 base per turn.

As far as using prophets to bulb Theology, it's something I frequently do with the early prophets I get from Stonehenge or the Oracle, if I build them. It's especially easy if you're going to try and found an early religion, as Theology is bulb-able after Mysticism, Meditation, Priesthood and Monotheism. Also, I've found that it's often a high-value tech for tech-trades, helping you make up lost ground from researching the religious techs early.

With the UB ability to run priests as well as scientists, it should be fairly easy to generate GPs for both a shrine and bulbing theology quickly. However, I rarely run priests (a possible shortcoming in my game) because they just never seem all that useful to me unless I'm specifically trying to generate a mid-game GP for a conquered holy city. Although I do love settled GPs from time to time.

إلهة يبارك لعبتك.

Never played Sally but I have an idea of how I might do it. Actually, I've been waiting for this ALC before I try it. Prioritize Archery for safer REXing after you grab a couple worker techs (Mining should be one of them, then BW so you can chop) then beeline Writing. Seems like going down the religious tech path would lend itself to warmongering and/or an AP win in Saladin's case. Early religions are risky at this level, but using your UB, you can easily snag Theology and Divine Right. This gives you access to the civics and wonders you want. It might be interesting to go light on the scientists and heavy on the priests (or even go all priests). This way, you can be founding religions and building shrines, and having first crack at the major religious wonders. I would have more fun using all the money and power from religions to go for domination, but an AP win is always an option in case domination becomes too unreasonable. Spread your religions around aggressively and build religious infrastructure and ideally you'll be teching fast and also have the ability to support a large standing army. Thoughts?

Protective and the Madrassa can also synergize to a little more distant city placement, if the map permits, with shielding and fill in. Look for choke points (even broad choke points) and don't be afraid to press up against an AI, especially if an important resource is involved. The best is when these cultural battles are over food; when you win it leaves the other city in much worse shape.

Spriritual, his better trait, is what to play around, especially in the religious techs as the UB points through the OR/Theo path with pacifism possibly too. No matter what, you have the certain option to play for the Theology beeline, so even if you don't get a religion one's always closeby but the guy is based in having at least one religion

I have to say I find this discussion very interesting. I am one of those who look at Saladin as one of the truly weak leaders of civ4. His traits are unexciting to me and his starting techs is the worst possible combo. The UU and UB are similarly unexciting.
But there's been some pretty good ideas here, I'm all for going more of a religious route in this game as that's something that I myself have left behind me after moving up from monarch and lower levels where I always used to grab one if not two or more religions. It would be very interesting to see just how far behind it would put you in the expansion race and how the later benefits would weigh in comparison to that sacrifice.
Of course it depends somewhat on the map, perhaps you should choose something that is not to crowded?

Sisiutil said:

Still, it seems to me that the way to use them is the same as the way you make heavy use of the Numidian Cavalry and many other early mounted UUs: give them Flanking promotions to further leverage their survival chances and use them to inflict damage.

Click to expand...

My, you do have some unique ideas on how to use units!

Now just lets hope Sisiutil remembers to use those flanking units as the first units that attack and not the last (inside joke for one of the first ALC's )

Maybe you should avoid 'choose religion' and go for Islam anyway, mono-theo-DR lightbulbing with prophets as appropriate. Theology also gives you a different route for liberalism which may be worth trying because you can bulb theo much more easily than you can bulb CS and spiritual means you can switch between OR and theocracy easily.

i say going for a religion early (with choose religion this means Islam! Allahu Akbar!) seems somehow right, especially given that you start with myst, and you have a UB that allows you to assign some extra priests.

maybe playing around with the religious game and showcasing some of the interesting aspects of using shrines, wonders and the AP, even (especially?) at the emperor (i was about to say immortal, but you're not there yet, are you) level could be both enlightening and entertaining.

Lets say you do go with the religious play, how do you want to do it, peaceful? or wrathful? that is to say do you tolerate and live peacefully with your neighbors, or do you declare jihad and run amok in a manner that would make monty or izzy rightly proud of you and your newfound fanaticism?

if you really do want to move up next level, being a religious psycho might just be the path to take as it may add a little bit of challenge and flavor to the fight, or it may not and just make it a walk, its hard to say really. granted i still play warlords at the prince -> monarch transition and i tend to be hit and miss with the more 'radical' strategies so i could be a little off.

Sisiutil said:

I'm undecided regarding the map--I was thinking fractal just to make it unpredictable and play-what-I-get, but I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Click to expand...

I've been using Refar's Random Script Chooser Map Script lately, and it's fantastic!

For lack of a better description, it's a 'suped up' customizable Shuffle script.

Two of its features I find most useful are the ability to exclude certain scripts (such as Archipelago if you hate watery maps) and to customize the starting plot rules (such as ensuring your non-Fishing leader doesn't start on the coast, or vice-versa, and even that you start in the 'Old World' with most of the map's civs for better warmongering/diplomacy!).

In my experience, it's far more likely to leave you in wonder about what type of map you might be on than if you choose Fractal, because even Fractal still requires some interaction on your part to shape the islands and such. It makes exploration that much more exciting and necessary.

Have you tried it before?

Sisiutil said:

Should I attempt to found a religion

Click to expand...

Yes.

Shouldn't we first have a look at the starting position before deciding whether to go for an early religion or not ? If you have a lot of forests around your starting position (and as such no early commerce boost), it might be better to delay going for a religion early on, as you might well be beaten to it if there are leaders like Isabella/Pacal/Gandhi... in the game

run a SE with saladin at the very start.


top wonders :

--> to get HUGE priests (+3 beaker, +2 hammer, +1 gold, +2 culture, best specialist ever) and benefit from your madrassa.
pyramids
angkor wat
sistine chapel
(having those 3 with saladin allow you to run a very strong SE)

--> as a spiritual leader that build temple fast
spiral minaret
university of sankore
(and once again, sistine )

SE, definitely. One of the main benefits of the Madrassa, IMO, is the ability to run twice the number of specialists early without the need to go into Caste System as long as you have the food and the pop to spare. That's twice the GPP early on. Gambling on either a G Prophet or Scientist is the price for this, but it's acceptable, IMO for that big a benefit - they're both useful early in the game, especially since Saladin really can use Theocracy and Pacifism to great benefit. Switching to Pacifism early and often with the increased Specialist building capacity can almost make him feel Philo sometimes.

Of course, it doesn't hurt to snag the usual SE wonders - Pyramids, Angkor Wat, and so on.

His Protective Trait allows you to really run that SE "close to the rail" as it were, using less units for defenses and cheap Walls to supplement power rating and unit performance where needed with a minimum impact on maintenance.

Never really got the purpose of the Camel Archer, though. Great to insure defensive siege control, I guess, regardless of resource availability. Added withdrawal is nice to use, I suppose, but with Protective gunpowder units just around the corner, is it really that beneficial to sideline into tech Guilds?

Saladin scrams founding religions and shrines for a super-religious economy.

He is difficult to play because his obvious strategy (founding religions) is rather hampered by the starting techs which provice no food techs and are 2 turns away from defense. Once you get through the first few techs with a religion he's a pretty solid leader and the UU compensates for lack of strategi resource in teh middle ages, so no imediate pressure to conquer them. SO start teching polytheism (meditation is too chancy) with the idea you'll pursue monotheism if you miss it. See what luck you get in the goody hut department, then follow that up. If no free techs, then polytheims, food tech, hunting/archery, masonry, monotheism.

In all of your ALC's you rarely go for a cultural win, I would like to see that here! By that time the era of the UU/UB would be over.

As far as map, it's pretty much irrelevant with this guy.

Pursuing wonder really depends on the map.

Good Luck!!!!

Going for an early religion can be a risky business if an AI gets the other one or two and spread them widely because you run the risk of facing a religious monobloc who all hate you with religious zeal.
It might be better to forego the early religions and pinch the later ones (stash a GP to bulb theo once judaism is gone, stash a GS to bulb tao while beelining CoL). Madrassa is particularly suited for this, a pop 6 city with 2 food sources could run 2 scientists and 2 priests.