Civics Impact on Diplomacy.

kairob

kairob

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So far in my games I have seen civics only have a very small impact on diplomacy, whereas in real life the government choices and the ideologies they represented was (along with religion) one of the main forces splitting countries into factions. My proposal is to have diplomatic modifiers based on some individual civics and the ideologies they clash with. I have drawn up a list of what I think best represents these differences. I think this will make players think carefully before making key decisions about their civics as well as encourage them to force other civs to share their ideologies. It is also more realistic.

Hereditary Rule
Representation & Universal Suffrage = -2 "we are afraid your revolutionary ideas will end our reign as Monarchs"

Representation & US
Representation & US = +1 "You are a supporter of democracy"
Police State = -2 "You are an oppressive dictator"

Emancipation
Slavery = -2 "You are a slave trader"

Free Market
Mercantalism = -1 "You are suppressing free trade"
Free market = +2 "You have embraced free trade"
State Property = -3 "You are a communist!"

State Property
Mercantalism = -1 "We dislike your imperialistic policies"
Free Market = -3 "You are a capitalist pig!"
State Property = +2 "We will continue to support you, our Comrade"
Theocracy + OR = -2 "You are too religious, it is the opium of the masses"

Theocracy
Free Religion = -3 "Your country is filled with atheism, heresy and paganism of the worst kind"
State Property* = -3 "you spread atheism like a plague, we fear for the morality of your populace!"

*If they also have Free Religion
 
Can I add:

Free Market
Environmentalism = -2 You and your damn EPA are stifling the economy!

Environmentalism
Free market = -3 you and your SUVs are destroying the Earth! Haven't you watched Al Gore's film yet? :lol:
 
If you want, I left them out because I wanted some civic options that would be neutral, like a sort of 'no state religion' of civics. However how about having them in, but only -1 and -2 respectivly? as the are a lot of modifiers I have tried to keep them low, the only 3's so far are over communism and religion, both of which people feal very strongly about, how about this;

Free Market
Environmentalism = -1 You and your damn EPA are stifling the economy!

Environmentalism
Free market = -2 you and your SUVs are destroying the Earth!
Environmentalism = +2 you are helping to save the Earth!?

As the are a lot of negative ones how about these too, so it balances out a bit more;
HR
HR = +1 "We are glad you have managed to stop the revolution from spreading in your lands."

Free Religion
Free Religion = +3 "you are tolerant of other faiths"
Pacifism = +1 "you are tolerant to other faiths"

Pacifism
Pacifism = +3 "We like you as you are no warmonger"
Free Religion = +1 "We like your Religious Tolerance"
Edit; Full list in a spoiler:

Spoiler :

Hereditary Rule
Hereditary Rule = +1 "We are glad you have managed to stop the revolution from spreading in your lands."
Representation & Universal Suffrage = -2 "we are afraid your revolutionary ideas will end our reign as Monarchs"

Representation & US
Representation & US = +1 "You are a supporter of democracy"
Police State = -2 "You are an oppressive dictator"

Emancipation
Slavery = -2 "You are a slave trader"

Free Market
Mercantalism = -1 "You are suppressing free trade"
Free market = +2 "You have embraced free trade"
State Property = -3 "You are a communist!"
Environmentalism = -1 "You and your damn EPA are stifling the economy!"

State Property
Mercantalism = -1 "We dislike your imperialistic policies"
Free Market = -3 "You are a capitalist pig!"
State Property = +2 "We will continue to support you, our Comrade"
Theocracy + OR = -2 "You are too religious, it is the opium of the masses"

Environmentalism
Free market = -2 "you and your SUV's are destroying the Earth!"
Environmentalism = +2 "you are helping to save the Earth!"

Theocracy
Free Religion = -3 "Your country is filled with atheism, heresy and paganism of the worst kind"
State Property* = -3 "you spread atheism like a plague, we fear for the morality of your populace!"

Free Religion
Free Religion = +3 "you are tolerant of other faiths"
Pacifism = +1 "you are tolerant to other faiths"

Pacifism
Pacifism = +3 "We like you as you are no warmonger"
Free Religion = +1 "We like your religious tolerance"

*If they also have no state Religion
 
I like these suggestions quite a bit. My general feeling is that civic differences are somewhat under-represented in hits/misses they cause for diplomacy, at least compared to religious differences.

I would support a move to raise the pluses and minuses for diplomacy related to differing civics. Particularly I think this would help to add even more flavour.
 
I'd rather not see too many bonuses or negatives as it might start to really cause problems for the AI. However, here's a list I'd support:

Spoiler :
Despotism
No bonuses or negatives

Hereditary Rule
Despotism: -
Hereditary Rule: +2 after Representation ("We are glad that you have kept the Revolution from your lands.")
Representation: -2 ("We fear for our position as monarchs.")
Police State: -
Universal Suffrage: -2 ("We fear for our position as monarchs.")

Representation
Despotism: -3 ("You are a brutal dictator!")
Hereditary Rule: -1 ("You deny your people democracy.")
Representation: +2 ("You have embraced the will of the people.")
Police State: -3 ("You are a brutal dictator!")
Universal Suffrage: +2 "(You have embraced the will of the people.")

Police State
Despotism: -
Hereditary Rule: -1 ("Your hereditary traditions are outdated.")
Representation: -2 ("You are foolish democrats.")
Police State: -
Universal Suffrage: -2 ("You are foolish democrats.")

Universal Suffrage
Despotism: -3 ("You are a brutal dictator!")
Hereditary Rule: -1 ("You deny your people democracy.")
Representation: +2 ("You have embraced the will of the people.")
Police State: -3 ("You are a brutal dictator!")
Universal Suffrage: +2 "(You have embraced the will of the people.")


Nothing for the Legal civics that I can think of.


Tribalism
No positives or negatives.

Slavery
Tribalism: -
Slavery: +1 ("The slave trade brings us together.")
Serfdom: -
Caste System: -
Emancipation: -3 ("We fear that you will incite our slaves to revolt!")

Serfdom
Tribalism: -
Slavery: -
Serfdom: -
Caste System: -
Emancipation: -2 ("We fear that you will incite our serfs to revolt.")

Caste System
Tribalism: -
Slavery: -
Serfdom: -
Caste System: -
Emancipation: -1 ("Your society denies people their true callings.")

Emancipation
Tribalism: -
Slavery: -3 ("You brutally enslave your populace!")
Serfdom: -2 ("Your people are bound to the land.")
Caste System: -1 ("Your caste system restricts the people.")
Emancipation: -



Decentralization
No positives or negatives.

Mercantilism
Decentralization: -
Mercantilism: -1 ("You compete with us for exports.")
Free Market: -2 ("We do not want to import your goods.")
State Property: -
Environmentalism: -

Free Market
Decentralization: -
Mercantilism: -2 ("You refuse to open your markets.")
Free Market: +2 ("Free trade brings our people together.")
State Property: -3 ("You are communists!")
Environmentalism: -1 ("Your idealism hinders economic development.")

State Property
Decentralization: -
Mercantilism: -
Free Market: -3 ("You are capitalists!")
State Property: +3 ("Your proletariat is in command.")
Environmentalism: -1 ("Your idealism hinders economic development.")

Environmentalism
Decentralization: -
Mercantilism: -
Free Market: -1 ("Your practices harm the environment.")
State Property: -2 ("Your heavy industry causes environmental catastrophes.")
Environmentalism: +2 ("You care for the environment.")



Paganism
No positives or negatives.

Organized Religion
Paganism: -2 ("Your people embrace pagan practices.")
Organized Religion: -
Theocracy: -
Pacifism: -
Free Religion: -1 ("We are suspicious of the many faiths in your lands.")

Theocracy
Paganism: -2 ("Your people embrace pagan practices.")
Organized Religion: -
Theocracy: +2 if same religion ("You acknowledge the central tenets of our faith."), -2 if different religions ("You deny the central tenets of our faith.")
Pacifism: -
Free Religion: -3 ("Your land is rife with pagans, atheists and heretics!")

Pacifism
Paganism: -
Organized Religion: -
Theocracy: -2 ("Your religion is a violent one.")
Pacifism: -
Free Religion: -

Free Religion
Paganism: -
Organized Religion: -2 ("We are wary of your fusion of church and state.")
Theocracy: -3 ("Your people are religious zealots!")
Pacifism: -
Free Religion: +2 ("You embrace people of all faiths.")
 
Yeah, but I couldnt spell Opiate ;)

@ Verily, I dont mind your list however I would rather not have representation and/or Universal Suffrage give too high a penalty to Dictatorships (the USA for one supports many in the developing world) a dislike for communist or fascist states would come about by dissagreeing with economy or labour rather than government so I would rather see only -1 for the dictatorships.

Also I think Pacifism and free religion should get a +1 with each other, lets face it Pacifists would be pretty tolerent.
 
kairob said:
@ Verily, I dont mind your list however I would rather not have representation and/or Universal Suffrage give too high a penalty to Dictatorships (the USA for one supports many in the developing world) a dislike for communist or fascist states would come about by dissagreeing with economy or labour rather than government so I would rather see only -1 for the dictatorships.
Click to expand...

I disagree; such friendships are despite relatively high tensions over human rights: "Our mutual military struggle brings us together" or "We appreciate the years you have supplied us with resources" or "You shared your technological discoveries with us" would counteract any dictatorship penalty. No less than -2 would be appropriate.

Also I think Pacifism and free religion should get a +1 with each other, lets face it Pacifists would be pretty tolerent.
Click to expand...

Yes, but not in any way that would improve relations. I was skeptical about Free Religion having a sympathetic benefit, too.
 
the complaints on human rights would be the use of slavery (forced labour causing the deaths of their own population) rather than a police state IMHO, however I could cope with -2.
& ok, no pacifism, -> free religion bonus then then
 
Hey, I like that idea! I'd go with Verily's list.

Just to comment though, most capitalist countries don't necessarily hate communist countries (i.e. made in China). I think everyone with pacifism should get +2 from everyone else. Even Gandhi's enemies respected him a lot for his pacifism.

I really like the diplomatic hit of 'theocracy-free religion'. I like kairob's killer penalty of Theocracy to atheist communism. Atheist communism made a lot of religious countries switch to capitalism. Historically, Malaysia almost went communist, but after being forced to renounce the state religion, we flipped to the capitalist side and even based the Malaysian flag off the American flag!

Organized religion should also have a -1 with Free Religion for the same reason. But I think cross-religion penalties should be halved, I'm still a bit grumpy about the Saladin/Tokugawa thing :sad:

Also, I think Merchantilism shouldn't have a penalty against anyone else, though free trade would have a penalty against them.
 
I like the Pacifism idea a lot, it will help pacifist civs at diplomacy to help make up for their lack of warfare. I also think that Mercantalism is fine as it is on Verily list as it means mercantalist civs dont get on very well with each other which is well suited them.
 
I also think that Mercantalism is fine as it is on Verily list as it means mercantalist civs dont get on very well with each other which is well suited them.
Click to expand...
Not necessarily. There are plenty of 'merchantilism' countries that get along very well with each other. In fact, it's can be a bonus in some cases, because of the anti-free trade opinion those countries have. They also get along fine with free trade countries so they have somewhere to export.. it's the free trade countries that hate them for the handicap ;)
 
I was thinking more about the mercantile Empires of the Colonial Era, who did not get on well with each other at all, and gameplay wise this would help that sort of situation.
 
This is an excellent idea!

So much of the "Great Power" diplomacy of the past two centuries has been decided by ideology, but at the moment you're able to keep old civics right into the modern age and on the flipside be the first to undergo a liberal revolution and still be great friends with your absolutist neighbours. I've always thought it a shame that the civic system ended up being a bland question of figures.

I hope you implement this, Rhye. It will add a lot more depth to the game.
 
Muz said:
Not necessarily. There are plenty of 'merchantilism' countries that get along very well with each other. In fact, it's can be a bonus in some cases, because of the anti-free trade opinion those countries have. They also get along fine with free trade countries so they have somewhere to export.. it's the free trade countries that hate them for the handicap ;)
Click to expand...

That's not mercantilism, that's protectionism, which really isn't mentioned at all in Civ. Mercantilism focuses on exporting as much as possible and on opening new foreign markets in addition to being self-sufficient domestically. In any case, protectionist states do not tend to get along well as it is always to one state's disadvantage if another state refuses free trade as a potential export market is restricted (and even the most ardent protectionists support exports).

Incidentally, although often referred to as the first free-trader state, the British Empire was strongly mercantilist until WWI: they forced other states to adopt free trade policies and exported their own products massively while being self-sufficient within their enormous empire. This provoked a lot of resentment among other states that wanted to be self-sufficient as British industry was so much more advanced that they could even work over tariff barriers.
 
Muz said:
I really like the diplomatic hit of 'theocracy-free religion'. I like kairob's killer penalty of Theocracy to atheist communism. Atheist communism made a lot of religious countries switch to capitalism. Historically, Malaysia almost went communist, but after being forced to renounce the state religion, we flipped to the capitalist side and even based the Malaysian flag off the American flag!
Click to expand...

But, as State Property and Theocracy are on separate categories, it is perfectly possible to use both yourself (and reasonably common for late-game warmongering). It is not difficult at all to imagine a deeply religious communist state (indeed, the "liberation theology" thread within Catholicism is very much so), and we should not allow State Property to be limited to historical Marxist views.
 
Hence it was put in as an additional bonus if you have Both state property AND free religion.

Although you are right in the state property doesn't only reflect Soviet Socialism but other types of government as well, however your are (in my oppinion at least) wrong in suggesting it reflects all types of communism, all it reflects is a system where the state owns all property. Some types of communism would not endors that.

Similarly some types of right wing government could be represented in the games civics system as using 'state property'. For example a country run by Aristocracy (who are land owners AND the government, thereby indirectly the government owns the land).

Another example would be a country run by a corporation who had achieved a total monopoly in all markets in the country and therefore owned all land, labour and capital (the factors of production). This is one way a shift from extreme capitalism to extreme communism could occur.
 
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