[ModComp] "Holy Wars" in developement. Asking for volunteers..

First Alpha Download is available here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=6738564#post6738564

Also Development will be moved to that thread to keep in consolidated.



Description: This mod will incorporate the idea of Holy Wars as a real game mechanic. Holy Wars in history are best noted during the Crusades when Christians fought the Turkish Muslims for ownership of the Holy Lands, but through out history there have been wars waged in the name of some nations God or another. Another example is the Hebrews God sanctioned invasion, in ancient times, of Canaan to claim their Promised Land.
I started out to make this a ModComp but there are just to many changes to the dll that have to be made, so we are working to make this a full fledge mod. Below you will find a list of rules changes and additions that we have come up with for this mod and things we have done already. Feel free to post your own ideas and suggestions on this.


Revisions/additions to below rules:
Starting Holy Wars will no longer be controlled through Civics but through the AP along with other new resolutions
surdanis has joined the team and will contribute his skills and experience with unit making. Welcome Aboard friend!


Note: all rules and ideas are subject to change, you can check the Progress percent in each category to see how far along the mod is.

Gameplay:

Each Civ will start the game as a fresh Civ and must advance through time as a normal game. There will be a different set of techs and new units. The game will progress through time until about the time and technology level when the crusades began in real history. This is a "War" game and players will be expected to do lots of fighting to win. Once the AP is built players can vote to Declare Holy War among other new Resolutions. While in a Holy War units gain extra bonuses. The Victory Conditions will also be different than normal games. One such Victory Condition could be to control all the current religion's Holy Cities. New things will be tested and added to the game as development progresses.

New Code and Progress:

New AP Voting Options and effects on Diplomacy: 80%


Effects on Combat: 90%

New Units: 25%

Closing: As I mentioned please feel free to post ideas and suggestions or offerings of help/code ect.

I have decided to make this a Mini Mod so to speak instead of a mod comp.. there is just to many rules changes in dll I am thinking to be called a "modcomp".

very interesting idea,

i also thought of hloy wars, but i dont have the skills to make it,

so id really like to see you develop the things you listed above,

and also,
i think sticking with a minimod will be easier for you,
less work, and other modders like me can impelement it inside other mods, and thus testing it for you and supplying you with feedback.

goodluck
ill be waiting.

keldath said:

very interesting idea,

i also thought of hloy wars, but i dont have the skills to make it,

so id really like to see you develop the things you listed above,

and also,
i think sticking with a minimod will be easier for you,
less work, and other modders like me can impelement it inside other mods, and thus testing it for you and supplying you with feedback.

goodluck
ill be waiting.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I am gonna keep it small to start with so It will be easier to debug and test as you say. With so many examples to go by out now and my basic programing knowledge this has been actually easier than I thought. I will mark all the areas in the SDK where I made changes so it will be easy just to cut and paste. I don't plan on adding any new Units Graphics or other graphics as of now, just using the Graphics that come with BTS.. there is plenty there. So people can add their own Graphics later if they want.

Anyway, this has been fun and a nice learning experience so far

This looks very interesting, I look forward to seeing it develop.

Cheers,
ripple01

@Kailric,
Interesting idea for a modcomp.

My first idea on hearing "Holy Wars" is to base it off of the AP wonder. Historically, a holy war was about these things---spreading the true religion by sword, fanatical troops, capturing the holy city from the heathens, the international religious leader abusing the crusade for personal power over subordinate leaders. Looks like you've already included most of that so far.

I'd suggest keeping the AP as a world wonder, but make one for each religion in the world (AP for Buddhism, AP for Judaism, etc...). Perhaps base the model off of an enhanced version of the Holy City Wonders (Temple of Solomon, etc...). Limit AP membership to civs that actually have that religion as their state religion. Make the holy war an AP voting event and make most of the mechanism for holy wars tied to that vote, with a limited amount of the holy war tied to the Theocracy civic.

Alternative to making an AP for each religion, have the Holy City wonder provide AP-style function. Still allow one AP world wonder, with it being slightly increased in power, and also able to function as a Holy City wonder in the case of a civ who's national religion's Holy City is occupied by another a civ.

Regardless one function of the AP should be to request a levy from other civ's of the same religion. That can supply the hammers needed to build any special Holy War-only type units.

What will the Zealot do that's different from the Crusader? Why make the Crusader a national unit, is it an uber unit? Does it represent an entire crusade force?

Also I'd suggest a fanatical type bonus for attacking the holy city of a religion other than your civ's national religion. A "death to the infidels" type bonus.

GoodGame said:

My first idea on hearing "Holy Wars" is to base it off of the AP wonder.

Click to expand...

Actually, I have only played PTW a few times so the AP is still new to me but It was something I was going to look into in relation to this mod. To me the period of the Knight just all went by too fast and its my favorite part in Civ IV histroy, so I started looking for ways to slow that period down so I could enjoy it more then the whole "Holy Wars" idea came to me. But, thanks for your ideas on that. I will definitely have the AP in the mod.

Besides the current resolutions, can you think of any other resolutions that can go along with the AP and the theme of this mod? I always liked the Alpha Centauri's resolution system.. like some resolutions added bonuses to sea trade and such so I may add in somethings like that.

What will the Zealot do that's different from the Crusader? Why make the Crusader a national unit, is it an uber unit? Does it represent an entire crusade force?

Click to expand...

Good question.. at this point I haven't given the Zealot much thought. But was thinking the Zealot would be able to spread religion as well as attack. Or maybe something like after capturing a city that does not have your state religion the Zealot can be used up to build a temple and add the religion to the city as well.

And at first the Crusader unit had to be joined with another unit in order for the unit to gain the Crusader promotion but I decided to go with the "spend one turn at a holy site" instead way, FfH2 gave me that idea. That keeps the player from having to build a whole new advanced army for his Holy War and also makes sense with actual history as all types of people join crusades there wasn't any special kind of Crusader training so to speak. So now I am not sure what to do with a Crusader unit. Maybe, make them special units that can do several things.. like give the Crusader promotion to any unit in the same space and maybe have a special command that allows it to recruit new units from conquered cities.

Also I'd suggest a fanatical type bonus for attacking the holy city of a religion other than your civ's national religion. A "death to the infidels" type bonus.

Click to expand...

Hmm.. maybe that can be a new unit all together.. Fanatic, or a promotion obtained somehow. Something to think about.

Again, thanks for the ideas!

I did not have the chance to read everything in this thread yet because it is later here, but I am working on right now on having a denomination system under the normal religions. The prophets cause a schism to make the denominations, and adding starting pagan religions for the civs. So I plan to add a crusade component in the future with these as well in some way. Just to let you know.

I do already have schisms already working mostly, and do have the civs starting with a religion. Don't have it all yet, but you will know when it is ready.

I think you mean BTS, not PTW here. One other advantage I see to basing some of this mod on the AP is the fact it models something that BTS still ignores in the general scenario, that although religions are unifying, there is still internecine conflict within a religion. There are still power struggles, false popes, and schisms.

The standard AP resolutions work pretty well:
1. stop fighting amongst those of the true faith,
2. declare war / stop trading with infidel (untrue faith),
3. open borders amonst those of the true faith.

The main tweak of the AP I would like is that a civ shouldn't be allowed a vote in the AP just for having a couple of cities of the AP's religion. Better if there was an AP resolution to demand those cities from that civ for the AP's civ. That would also be a necessary tweak for a mod that allowed each religion to have its own AP equivalent, to avoid being a member in every AP, which would be kind of buggy IMO.

Another useful tweak to the AP would be for it to be possible to keep the voting cycle of the AP high by some artifical means, perhaps by civic (Theocracy). It seems in-built that the AP resolution cycle increases over time, though I'm not sure if it's turn dependent or tech dependent, or situational.

A final tweak would be to alter the AI so possessing the AP was important to all those with the national religion. Perhaps also add some resolution to change the AP to the most powerful or populous civ with that national religion? Or make the AI declare short wars for the purpose of gaining the AP?

Kailric said:

Actually, I have only played PTW a few times so the AP is still new to me but It was something I was going to look into in relation to this mod. To me the period of the Knight just all went by too fast and its my favorite part in Civ IV histroy, so I started looking for ways to slow that period down so I could enjoy it more then the whole "Holy Wars" idea came to me. But, thanks for your ideas on that. I will definitely have the AP in the mod.

Besides the current resolutions, can you think of any other resolutions that can go along with the AP and the theme of this mod? I always liked the Alpha Centauri's resolution system.. like some resolutions added bonuses to sea trade and such so I may add in somethings like that.

Click to expand...

ok, yeah, i wanted to do something similar to what you were thinking. but what i wanted to was to alter the overall gameplay as little as possible. i will pm you with ideas and what you want me to contribute exactly.

as i read them over, i pretty much liked everything you have suggested, Kailric. and you can definitely use my customized units and buildings in my own modcomp. i want to collaborate on this project with you. i think want mostly the same things. but i'm still not sure about the civic idea . not just anyone should be able to declare a holy war. i feel the following conditions should apply:

1. Be the AP resident. As the resident, you can declare holy wars already. Just add your mechanics to it without the need for a civic change.
2. Use a Great Prophet to start a holy war without the need for a civic.
3. If a holy city is capture, there is a good chance a holy war is started by the civ who lost it.

i like the overal notion of the military civic, but i wonder about the holy war and conscription options. conscription seems to overlap with nationalism. and holy war is too temporary to be made a civic and too limited with the current modifiers. i suppose the fix would be to change those do the following:

1. Conscription renamed to something like Industrial Mobilization, which may be researchable with a new tech like Instant Mobilization or an existing one, which allows one to mobilize the economy like in Civ 3, speeding up military production while reducing domestic and adding some war weariness (though this is probbly out of the scope of THIS mod as I think of it, though great for a future one )
2. Holy War renamed to Fundamentalism, available with Divine Right, but without the "no foreign trade or corporation" or "non-state religion spread" since these are both covered by Mercantilism and Theocracy respectively. Iran, for example, is fundamentalist and still trades, etc. Fundamentalism is the only civic which allows one to declare holy wars freely without a Great Prophet, capture of holy city, or residency in the AP.

If you make these changes, there will zero conflicts, and will actually allow for future applications in the civic department. I like the idea of a new civic to cover volunteer armies and one to cover professional armies. Here are some ideas for those:

1. Volunteerism: Available with Representation, allows one to build Militia with Gunpowder and National Guard with Rifling through conscription prior to Nationalism and in addition to. The units would be generally weaker than regular units but would be free if kept as defensive units in a city. I would love to make these units for you!
2. Professionalism: Available with Monarchy, all new military units receive bonus XP while increasing unit maintenance. This does not conflict with Theocracy, but merely works synergistically.

@GoodGame and surdanis

Some good thoughts on the AP there... that is the next thing I am looking into. Just glancing over the code it looks more complicated than what I have worked on so far but I am going to see what I can do, what tweaks can be made and report back.


@surdanis

The Military Civics was started with another mod I had in mind really.. but I didn't have a good way of Declaring Holy War, so I added the new CIvic to this mod as well. If I can move all the Holy War decisions to the AP I want need a Holy War Civic.. I never really liked it there anway, seemed out of place.

I never liked the idea that you could not use conscription till late in the game.. when in actual history it was used well early on. So the Conscription Civic was just an early way to start being able to draft as it would only allow 1 draft max per turn and the Nationalism increases it to 3 max per turn.

A new Military Civic seems to fit nicely in with the game actually... just deciding on the bonuses and names for each is the thing. I have been studying up on it all recently and Conscription, Militia, hiring professional armies, or a combination of them was all used even back in ancient times. But tweaking any new Civics would be easy enough for any modder out there. I may work that in as a separate mod comp altogether as adding a new Civic category doesn't require any changes to the dll file if you don't add any new civic bonuses.

So on that note here are some ideas I have...


PS.. and yes.. I meant BTS.. not PTW..

Ok, I looked into it and this is what I have come up with so far.

-The time between votes is set at 9 turns for AP then down to 5 turns when you build the UN. This can be adjusted to whatever.

I added two more Resolutions but they are not fully implemented yet:

-Declare Holy War
-Renounce Holy War (to end the Holy War Declaration)

Ok, here is some questions:

I am thinking of two ways to handle the Holy War.
1. Once you Declare Holy War all Full Members auto Enter War with none members and voting members. War lasts until AP Renounces Holy War or all infidels are annihilated or convert. While under Holy War all Full Members get the bonus to combat and such

2. the AP Declares Holy War on all Infidels but its up to each member to decided when and where to start their war if at all. In other words you are not forced to go to war. As long as AP has Declared Holy War.. if you Declare war on Infidels you may receive the bonuses and such

Maybe I'll do both for testing purposes, but which way do you think it should be?

Also, I can prolly make it so that "Voting Members" (ones with just the religion in the city) do not get to vote on Holy Wars, or maybe not at all. That would mean there are only Full Members in the AP.

One last thing, I am not sure how complicated it will be to add APs for each religion but I know it would be time consuming so that is something that will be looked into when the first release is complete.

Sounding good, Kaliric.

I like the idea of being able to opt out in joining the holy war, but possibly incur a small diplomatic hit with your fellow zealots. i.e. You didn't join us in our crusade.

This mechanism could be further developed in conjunction with schisms, splits, etc.

Cheers,
ripple01

I like balancing the options some, though I'd lean towards 2. It becomes too much of a gimme if your religious bloc obeys you like zombies. I'd lean towards the Holy War automatically causing plus diplo mods with your fellow ("Our mutual struggle brings us closer together"), but only inclining the AI towards war (say a -4 diplo mod with the target of a Holy war "you are infidels!!!").

A reasonable opt out for civs that should, but don't make the declaration of war would be a "tithe" to the AP civ when a Holy war is on (say every 10 turns); Basically a bribe of say 20-100 gp paid by all civs that are aligned to the AP by their national religion, but wish to refuse declaring war against the target; Alternatively, the 'tithe' might be units/hammers automatically converted to the special Holy war units (crusders etc..). That way the AP/Holywar thing is still valuable, but doesn't automatically equal mass vassalization.

GoodGame said:

I like balancing the options some, though I'd lean towards 2. It becomes too much of a gimme if your religious bloc obeys you like zombies. I'd lean towards the Holy War automatically causing plus diplo mods with your fellow ("Our mutual struggle brings us closer together"), but only inclining the AI towards war (say a -4 diplo mod with the target of a Holy war "you are infidels!!!").

Click to expand...

Actually I have decided to use both, as so...

New Resolutions:

1)Declare Holy War: if approved all members declare war on all infidels, weaker or passive AIs will attempt to vote this down. Must have open borders with all members. Also starts a Defensive pact between all Members.
2)Sanction Holy War: the AP approves of and will bless any war started against infidels, but war is not mandatory. Weaker or passive AIs will more likely approve of this resolution than 1. Stronger AIs will attempt to capitalize on the extra combat bonuses and declare war.
3)Renounce Holy War: ends both Declaration and Sanction. AIs winning lots of battles will attempt to vote this down. If the player sees a rival gaining too much power because of the Holy War he may want to have it ended for a time
4)Promote World Peace: attempt to cause world wide cease fires (just thought of this one as I was typing)

Having both 1 and 2 would add more strategic depth to the mod it would seem to me. If the player owns the AP and is in the middle of a costly war he could try to pass a Declare Holy War to get the heat off his back. If he is weak and needs time to build he may opt for #2 instead.

I like the idea of mods to diplomacy and will look into adding that.

At the moment I just got finished testing "Sanction Holy War" in its ruff stages and it worked fine. After the Resolution passed I could start sending units to Cathedrals to have them Blessed and receive the Crusade promotion, so things are moving right along.

A reasonable opt out for civs that should, but don't make the declaration of war would be a "tithe" to the AP civ when a Holy war is on (say every 10 turns); Basically a bribe of say 20-100 gp paid by all civs that are aligned to the AP by their national religion, but wish to refuse declaring war against the target; Alternatively, the 'tithe' might be units/hammers automatically converted to the special Holy war units (crusders etc..). That way the AP/Holywar thing is still valuable, but doesn't automatically equal mass vassalization.

Click to expand...

I too was thinking along these same lines. If Sanction Holy War is passed all members who are not currently in a war could be expected as you say to help out. Probably through normal diplomacy a player could ask a fellow member for aid.

good work kailric. i like where you're going with this. i sent you a pm about the collaboration effort. i would love to see my new units and buildings added to this mod. currently, i am working on getting the new units up as i have recently moved from okinawa. hope to get the stuff uploaded soon!

and again, well done.

surdanis said:

good work kailric. i like where you're going with this. i sent you a pm about the collaboration effort. i would love to see my new units and buildings added to this mod. currently, i am working on getting the new units up as i have recently moved from okinawa. hope to get the stuff uploaded soon!

and again, well done.

Click to expand...

Ok, sounds good and welcome aboard! Looking forward to checking out the new units you have!

Just an update and a new idea:

Declare Holy War, Sanction Holy War, and Renounce Holy War are all up and running in close to finish states.

New idea:

Sometime tomorrow I am going to look into adding another "votesource".. that is the AP is considered a vote source and one more source would seem to be appropriate. The reason being is when 3 or 4 nations all declare holy war on you and all other remaining so called "infidels" it just may be wise to unite together with your fellow "deniers of the one true faith" and fight back.

To add more than one would be a whole lot of coding and at this point doesn't seem necessary considering there is basically just two sides... Infidels vs Infidels

Vote Sources are connected to a building, not sure if I can get around that without a lot of headache, so what kind of building would it be.. can you think of anything in history akin to the AP that could be used?

Anyway, adding this will take a good while and a lot of code so I will prolly get a test version posted for download first before I try to add it. And to compensate I could add bonus modifiers to "infidel" diplomacy between each other, that way they should unite on their own.

Another update:

I added a new Resolution "Force Civic Theocracy", this proved to be a bit tedious to add so I haven't be able to work on much else.

To Declare Holy you must first:
1. Build the AP
2. Have contact with all members
3. Pass Force Civic Theocracy and Pass Defensive Pact with all members

The AI will test the power of all members against the power of all Infidels plus his/her traits to determine if they will vote to pass a Holy War or Sanction a Holy War

I updated the top post to reflect the changes

Kailric said:

Just an update and a new idea:

Declare Holy War, Sanction Holy War, and Renounce Holy War are all up and running in close to finish states.

New idea:

Sometime tomorrow I am going to look into adding another "votesource".. that is the AP is considered a vote source and one more source would seem to be appropriate. The reason being is when 3 or 4 nations all declare holy war on you and all other remaining so called "infidels" it just may be wise to unite together with your fellow "deniers of the one true faith" and fight back.

To add more than one would be a whole lot of coding and at this point doesn't seem necessary considering there is basically just two sides... Infidels vs Infidels

Vote Sources are connected to a building, not sure if I can get around that without a lot of headache, so what kind of building would it be.. can you think of anything in history akin to the AP that could be used?

Anyway, adding this will take a good while and a lot of code so I will prolly get a test version posted for download first before I try to add it. And to compensate I could add bonus modifiers to "infidel" diplomacy between each other, that way they should unite on their own.

Click to expand...

sorry for going afk for so long lol.

i think the correct answer will come to me soon. i don't think the muslims were ever really united like the christians under one church, so i'll look into it. i imagine some sort of mosque-type deal.

currently working on creating and uploading Marshall of the Templars/Teutons/Hospitallers unless you want me to work on something else like the Pilgrim. the marshalls are obviously inspired by the new Kingdoms expansion pack for Medieval II, and will essentially be national units (limit 3) that are more powerful than any other mounted unit.

but these, again, are the just the Christian units. i will also look into filling gaps for the Jewish ones (Macabees?) and the other religions--namely, Muslim, since it is the natural opposite of the AP. will get back on this soon.