Monarch Attempt (Nobles' Club readers/players are welcome)

Diamondeye

So Happy I Could Die
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Okay, so basicly, I am attempting Monarch for the first time ever in Civ4, and I thought it'd be a good idea to do this the same way as the other writeups there are out here, especially Mad Scientist's RPC games, as well as the Paradigm Shift. Bit by bit with lots of discussion and advice.

Also, I though this might be a good chance for the players currently playing the Nobles' Club games to join in on discussion and perhaps learn something. Also, with my every move examined in detail by the sharper people out there, I can learn to combat some of my mistakes as well, and it'd be great if I could cash in my first Monarch Victory aswell.

So, anyway, here goes:

Game settings:


Okay, random civ, 7 random AI opponents on a large Pangea, all victories enabled, epic speed, and the only toggled option is "permanent alliances"".

We press start and here is our glorious leader in this game:


Suryavarman II, of the Khmer. Quick analysis of traits and Uniques:
Creative is a great trait, especially because I tend to avoid the religious techs, including mysticism, and therefore I tend to have some ery culture-weak cities. Also, the cheap buildings is a handsome bonus; libraries, theatres and colluseums.
Expansive is a little bit more mediocre, adding 2(?):health: to evert city we own aswell as granting +25%:hammers: when building workers. Fine, but nothing spectacular.

The ballista elephant is one of the most heavily discussed UUs in the game. It is a normal War Elephant with the ability to always attack the mounted units in a stack when not attacking cities. Very nice, but as Ivory is rare, we might not be able to use these babies :sad:
The Baray is the Khmer replacement of a standard aquaduct, with a very nice bonus of +1:food:.

The synergies of these four things are not to be underrated. If you have Ivory, you will earn +1:) as it is a luxurious resource. Since we are Exp, it will most likely be :) that limits our city sizes early on.

Also, both the UU and UB require Construction, a tech that also unlock the catapult unit, which is the first siege unit and the harbinger of many a protective civilization (how I love to knock in Sal's door with these babies!).

And, as if it isn't enough, Construction also unlocks the Coluseum building, which adds another +1:), which we can put to good use, and the hammer cost is even halved because of the creative trait! This is definately a good tech to get our hands on asap.

Other than that, we start with Mining/Hunting, a nice workertech combination that allows direct access to the oh so crucial Bronze Working. Only problem is that the worker techs are a little bit food-poor, so unless there are any deer, we might need to tech a worker tech or two.

But these are mere speculations! Nothing is decided until we see the start screenshot! So we go on and...Look here!


I say, what a catch! In the BFC of the current settler position, we have 3 riverside Ivory as well as a riverside Corn! Our scout can see another food resource, Banana, on the coast to the east. Furthermore, it might look as if there was a resource on the hill the scout occupies, as it is the only revealed, non-forested tile in the start BFC.

So, what are people saying? Settle in place? Perhaps a scout move first, W-SW to get a better look at surroundings?

My personal idea would be settle in place, start worker immidietly while teching Agri/BW/Wheel/Pottery. After finishing worker build order would be something like warrior/warrior/scout(?)/worker(chopped)/settler(chopped)...

Discuss!
 
settle on one of plain elephants, as it gives +1 :hammers: ;) This will speed up the construction of your worker ;) which sould be first build :)

Maybe settle on the elephants 1 north of the scout. The ocean is right next to the banana it seems. so if your do not have it in the BFC, it might not be in a good spot for another city.
 
Post the 4000 BC save?

Move Scout: 2NE

Settle: 1S or 1SE (the former for more production ... the latter for more food after Calendar)

Tech: Agriculture > BW > ?

Build: Worker > Warrior/Scout (however many come out by pop 3) > Settler (at pop 3 working all 3 resources) > Worker > Settler

Improve: Farm Corn > Camp Ivory > Camp Ivory > Chop/Mine Grassland Hill Forest (queue swap 1 turn so a Worker gets the chop) > Mine Riverside Grassland Hill > follow Settler


-- my 2 :commerce:
 
Post the 4000 BC save?

Move Scout: 2NE

I don't like that answer - to my mind, which elephant to settle on is an important question here, and I think sending the scout W or NW gives better information.

Build: Worker

Settle on one elephant, work the other. That hits the 4 gets you 5 hammer bonus on workers; with the extra food, you'll have 6 hammers per turn while training the worker.

If that river is real, then there isn't likely to be a resource under the scout.
 
I say settle in place.

Corn, forrested river grasslands for chopping/cottages. Three riverside Jumbos, why settle on them????? They provide 1 food, 3 hammers, 2 commerce. Better than almost any mined hill until railroad at which point you can watermill them.

Also, I think this is the first time I can actually see the khmer UU in action, as I never get Jumbos when I play Sury :)sad:) and I have not really seen a walkthrough with him. Looking foreward to some rampaging khmerian Balista's.
 
I'm glad to see some response, especially from so skillful people. I agree mostly with VoU because of the hammers issue and therefore, I think the scout move will be W-SW or 2W. Thereafter, I'll have to take a look and decide which of the two Jumbos to settle (@Madscientist: Settlinga jumbo wins the city +1:hammers: from city tile aswell as an instant +1 :), not that I don't have the time to camp an elly before hitting Happycap, but still...!) Plus, if you look at the tiles we win by moving 1S, we know four of them; a grassland hill, a riverside grassland, a grassland forest and a riverside grassland forest, very nice tiles all 4! The last looks as a grassland, perhaps with a jungle on top. The 5 tiles we lose are unknown but 3 of them are riverside and a fourth is a hill, possibly plains.

I prefer settling 1S unless scout move reveals anything drastic.

Okay, scout move made. The situation is now as follows:


What a wicked start! 3 Dyes so close aswell, 2 of them being free from jungle.

I am still split between 1S and 1SE as we would need Calendar anyway to maximize it's BFC's potential. I might go 1SE as I like a capital with a lot of :food: and :hammers:, but on the other hand, tiles are generally better 1S (fewer plains). Also, 1S favors a commercial capital more. Please help me out here :crazyeye:
 
Corn, forrested river grasslands for chopping/cottages. Three riverside Jumbos, why settle on them?????

a) for the extra hammer.

b) you have no 3P tiles in play. This means that your initial worker will be trained at 5/turn, rather than 6/turn, and will therefore be three turns late (T18 instead of T15).

This won't always be a big deal - three extra turns of building roads at worth much. In this case, you've got tiles available to improve (especially if you tech Agriculture first), which gives your worker plenty of tasks right out of the gate.

c) you are only settling on one of them, not all three.

That means that there's really no advantage to having a third camp available until you get to size 4. At that point, you are talking about the difference between working an Ivory camp (1F/3P/2C) and a riverside grassland mine (1F/3P/1C); it's not clear that difference is enough to compensate for the hammer. As the population grows, the compensation does get better - because we are always comparing the Ivory camp to the other unshared tile + 1 :hammers:, but it's going to be a while before you are breaking even.

(Note that's a general truth - the more good tiles you have available, the lower the marginal cost of settling on one.)

And even when you have caught up in raw totals, you still haven't really caught up in value, as value tends to be time dependent. Hammers now are more valuable than hammers later - by varying amounts, depending on circumstances.
 
There is reason in your words, VoU :) Please look at the latest screenie and give a feedback on settling 1S or 1SE.

For people who wanted the save, there seems to be a problem with the upload attachment function, please, no spoilers!
 
I don't like that answer - to my mind, which elephant to settle on is an important question here, and I think sending the scout W or NW gives better information.

I wanted to know what was around the Banana. Specifically, "what is the coastline doing?"

I get so [pissed] when settling 1 away from a good [read "food"] resource means totally screwing up positioning on a good expansion city.

In this case, if the coastline comes back NW and SW, then the Banana might be kinda "all alone" without a corresponding Seafood tile.

Settling 1S or 1SE are both great sites. But if settling 1S means there's no good placement around the Banana, then I'd settle 1SE to put it in the Capital BFC.

So for that reason, I'd want to know what the coastline looked like before settling.

--------

Settle: 1S (great production: 17P @ pop6, 20P @ pop7 ... 6 Watermill-able tiles)
 
Well I'll be following this thread, I'd like to Improve my game and eventually move up to monarch at some point, so it should be pretty informative. Already interesting to see everyones thoughts on the start.

Good luck Diamondeye
 
OUch. That sucks ending up with the worst civ in the game for your random leader.

... I didn't get Ramesses? Wtf?
Seriously, Suryavarman of the Khmer is a good leader, not nearly the worst. But if you don't have anything more constructive to say :p, then go away :gripe: :lol:

Anyway, I have played until Bronze Working, posting now, in this reply:

4000 BC to 3150 BC:
I did some scouting while teching Agri->BW; first scout got killed by a panther (in a forest!?), so I built another one right after worker, then 2 warriors, before starting settler one turn after BW, which is where we are now. We have met some rivals; Qin Shi Huang and Tokugawa seems to live down south, along with Charlemagne, while Gandhi and Mansa Musa seems to live in the west.
Qin and Toku are rather warmongerish, and Charle is just plain nuts. What troubles me is that Gandhi and MM seems to work well together and are both peacemongers, and with a considerable techrate. Anyway, after the initial scouting, the lay of the land is this:

North:


Not much to say. Coast. No seafood to be seen. But now it gets interesting:
South:


How's that fellas? Anyway, I dotted the next three cities using the above pics:
Order of founding is red first, then yellow, then green (unless ofc we find good spots to the west first):



The red city is crucial to landgrab south and grant immidiate access to copper, the yellow city has an incredible 4 resources, two of them being calendar and one more hidden beneath jungle. The rice looks as if it is clear, but the jungle might very well spread down there too. In that case, yellow will mainly be landgrab until IW (as we are Exp it will be able to grow some despite the jungle :yuck:). The green city is backfill with stone and a safe copper resource.

Okay, let me hear any opinions, questions, anything! :lol:

EDIT: Sorry for not haing the grid on, it will be next time :sad:
 
Settling on the jumbo 1S looks best to me. (EDIT: Also, you can cottage the dyes until you get calendar).

Suryavarman isn't that bad a leader, his UB is good and his traits are fairly nice too. His UU is a bit marginal, but you have jumbos so that's something at least.
 
The Khmer do have nice synergies...

I think there are a few exercises that you ought to work your way through, rather than just polling for the best starting square. How about counting food at those two locations? Or enumerating your plan for the capital?

Corrections are going to be much more effective than answers in improving your own game, since the former are going to allow your readers to identify your weaknesses.
 
Thanks for the feedback, both of you. First round is posted above. And thanks for the corrections VoU, I might do some calc on my dotmap above, or my next dilemma when settling cities.
 
Well the map is saying "cottage spam" to me.
 
Thoughts - you are playing without a plan.

I'd probably move the yellow dot one west. Green dot I hate. Red dot... There's not enough information, but 2W of the copper looks more likely.

You should really have more visibility about what's west of the capital; the mission of "figure out where your second city should go" seems to have been lost to other concerns.
 
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